Do You Feel Betrayed By Your Loved One's Addiction?
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[00:00:00] When you're in a relationship with someone and then suddenly you become aware that there's been some deception right and especially if that deception has been going on like a long time we're not talking about like I lied and I spent $10 night can tell you we're talking about like major like stuff that's happened usually over a pretty good long period of time
when that kind of thing gets uncovered in a relationship the damage that is caused by that is very deep it is very very difficult to heal and we call that it's got a social name we call that betrayal trauma and I know that a lot of our viewers deal with that we deal with addiction but it's not just like oh my spouse secretly had addiction to cocaine
I didn't know like that's bad enough right but there's always a lot more Yeah in connection to that and then lot of times just that other stuff that we just get stuck on and it we can't move forward and so [00:01:00] for that reason We have special guest I call my guest expert witnesses Nevin
and Nevin is like a real life couples counselor and just for you guys who don't know like the couples counselors I think are like what are like in the army the hardcores what do they call them like that's what the couples counselors are like they do the hardest dirtiest front lines where like I'm I don't want to put people in the same room
I'm too scared of that so that's all my respect and admiration trench impressive yeah thank you Nevin's going to tell us how to navigate this big old mine field of a mess called Betrayal Trauma thank you so much for being here Nevin Yeah thank you Amber for having me i I'm so thrilled with the content you create and the good that you do in the world and excited to be part of that today
I'm flattered that you would invite me so oh yeah we're going to get a lot of good stuff out of Nevin
Now obviously when I deal with addiction [00:02:00] I have an idea about how that leads to betrayal trauma but there are other things that causes it too so I kind of want to know first like what are the most common things Yeah that trigger this sort of issue in response you know I I and I love the introduction that you gave and the way that you brought that topic in because you're right
betrayal trauma is real it's a real category of trauma right and we hear about lots of different traumas that people can run into you know trauma that comes out of assault or trauma that comes out of abuse or trauma that comes out of post-trauma experiences like nine 11 or military service right
um mm-hmm these are all these are all legitimate forms of trauma and betrayal trauma in a relationship is just as real oh yeah it exists just as real right and the foundation of betrayal trauma like the thing that really causes the most damage for the individual who's betrayed and really for the betrayer as well is the violations of trust
mm-hmm that occur with betrayal trauma right it's [00:03:00] even bigger than the actions that people take it's the violation that occurs in trust and trust is extremely important because when you look at intimacy mm-hmm if we use intimacy as a term that we just apply to that connecting and bonding component right
yeah in a relationship when you look at intimacy and the connection and attachment that that's formed with intimacy the more trust that can exist in a relationship the stronger the intimacy can be right right so when trust is really high in a relationship we have a really strong bond and connective power between two individuals
and when trust is weak in a relationship that intimacy is also very weak and sometimes even non-existent well with partners right when you're talking about spouses in a marriage or life partners that are kind of navigating the world with one another the goal for that type of a relationship a marriage type of relationship is meant to be the most intimate of all connections [00:04:00] that we might experience with another person
mm-hmm and so you take that intimacy that we know is founded on deep levels of trust and then you find out one day and especially the way that you described it I find out one day that for years but it doesn't always have to be years it can be weeks or months but especially years
right I find out one day that this core component of our relationship trust has been violated mm-hmm over and over again mm-hmm you can see how quickly intimacy can drop from extremely high levels to almost non-existent in a moment oh yeah yesterday I felt close and connected safe secure with you
and now in the last five minutes I feel like I don't even know who you are yeah and maybe even like a level not just I don't feel connected to you but I feel unsafe with you like yeah I feel this is dangerous like almost you're my enemy even like Oh yeah [00:05:00] because it's sort of a the deepest kind of wounding because I think
it's like what you're talking about it's not the mistake someone else makes yes it's the deception that messes with your mind like it messes you up absolutely right and you're not just any person in my world you're the person you're my person like yes right I've given myself to you on deeper levels than anybody else
I've invited you into my work world mm-hmm on deeper levels than anybody else you know things about me that most people don't know you've seen me at my best you've seen me at my worst right and I've allowed you into this space with me because of this love and this bond and this connection that I feel with you
and it's that safety that security that trust that gets betrayed in a couple's relationship that is so devastating right mm-hmm and can feel so alarming to an individual mm-hmm that's what we're talking about when we say betrayal trauma right and I I'm sure for those listening if you've experienced some of that you know it like you know what that feels like mm-hmm
in your heart and [00:06:00] in your gut and in your mind right the the anxiety the hurt the sadness is extremely deep and it's very difficult for couples to navigate yeah I was listening to I was at a workshop this was a few years back and I was listening to a sex addiction therapist and they were talking about you know you get the question all the time like what is cheating
you know it's like talking to someone you know and just so you guys know we're talking about more than just cheating like mm-hmm that's one kind of betrayal there's lots of them but And then the person answer which I thought was a really interesting answer she said it's when one partner has a secret that the other a big secret that the other one doesn't
and the problem with that is is it makes the power differential totally skewed and I thought well that's kind of a simple way to look at it right like instead of like well is this thing cheating or is like you know where's the line yeah it's the secret holding absolutely and I think it's the secret holding whether it's with that kind of cheating or any other kind because there's like Financial deception
[00:07:00] absolutely you know there's substance abuse there's all kinds so tell us what are the big like categories of it that you see in your practice nevin yeah no and I'm glad that you bring up the secrecy and what compounds on top of that secrecy also is I'm keeping something from you and not just keeping something from you
I'm keeping something from you with some knowledge that if you knew it It would hurt you oh yeah if I just didn't tell you something because I didn't even think of it or that's not what we're talking about like I didn't even know you wanted to know you know yes definitely like purposeful
yeah yes which then right like to the other individual in the relationship it feels like your loyalty was to the thing more than me right right it really is as though it introduces another loyalty partner and it could be money like you said right like it could be money it could be decisions that you're making with family or siblings behind my back
yep yep right it could be emotionally inappropriate relationships like an [00:08:00] emotional affair physical affair oftentimes partners will feel very betrayed with things like pornography mm-hmm for pornography use or masturbation use right um you know outside of the relationship it could be
things with spirituality right religion mm-hmm I I see it in almost any category that you can think of because this type of betrayal trauma can exist with any topic that's extremely meaningful to one or both partners so it really is where their values are where the principles are for them
Individually and in the relationship that this type of thing can exist I mean it can even exist I interacted with a couple that with maintenance of one of their rental properties and one partner saying yeah yeah yeah I'm getting it done and you know it's being maintained the flooring's being maintained
we're doing you know we're doing walkthroughs and things to make sure this property's taken care of and finds out three three years later this property is a complete dump at this point wow yeah there's been no maintenance happening mm-hmm mm-hmm and there's this alarming experience in the relationship
all [00:09:00] of a sudden it's like wait a second I've asked you about this multiple times and you made it seem completely different than what I'm realizing now you completely misled me like you've yeah yeah and so really any topic right like it could really exist and it is really about the values and the principles that really mean something to one or both partners that being betrayed in a way that's not just a partner being unaware and unknowing right
is this knowing and intentionally lying mm-hmm kind of prioritizing a thing over here more than the feelings you might feel for me here in our relationship right right right so the topics are kind of endless but those are the big ones I see financially right um you know in the emotional and physical affair categories pornography use categories substance use categories
These are kind of the most common ones Right that we run I found that when someone has an addiction the addiction Pretty much brings all the categories in right yeah cause the [00:10:00] person is
spending a lot of time that they're not accounted for so they're you know there's time issues
where were you what were you doing like maybe I was supposed to be working on the property but I wasn't yeah there's frequently like sometimes when especially when someone finds out someone has an opioid addiction yes always a huge financial mess I mean huge so not only did I find out like you have this addiction but oh my gosh like you have a hundred thousand dollars in payday loans or something crazy you know like it's almost always there
and then you know other addictions lead more to like um emotional infidelity and physical and fidelity so there's I feel like addiction almost always brings those other prongs with it and a lot of times it's multiple others yep mm-hmm yeah really complicated layers right that mm-hmm when you start looking at the impacts of distrust and betrayed trust in the relationship starts to navigate multiple categories right
so there's distrust and broken trust that comes out of lack of honesty right mm-hmm and then [00:11:00] there's the broken trust that comes out of doing a thing that you know would hurt me right and then there's the distrust right that comes out of all the times that you could have brought it up that you didn't you omitted it
mm-hmm and then a few times that you kind of just straight up gaslighted me oh yeah right like that you made me feel like a fool a lot of times being curious right like um you know so we're talking about multilayers Yeah of trust that needs to be healed and rebuilt mm-hmm in a relationship and like you said multiple consequence outlets
right like multiple places in which the relationship's now injured and needs repair right you know and even though we're talking about this I want to sort of I almost like turn the table a little bit here because Yeah we're talking about how like this villain person it just is horrible horrible things
right but the worst part about it is this other person isn't like necessarily like a villain right mm-hmm anybody could find theirself on either side of this issue absolutely that's what I want you guys to know absolutely anybody could be on either side so how how [00:12:00] does someone find theirself in the like the betrayer category
like how does someone get to this point where they're where they're deceiving on this level yeah which is so hurtful yeah and I'm glad that you bring that up Amber and you know just as well maybe better than most right that most individuals that are out there in the world aren't sociopath oh yeah
right they're not they're not out the typically they don't wake up in the morning in conniving ways think how can I maliciously hurt the most meaningful people in my world right and they're not narcissists either
there but I just feel like they'll get thrown out I'm like oh my gosh everyone's not a narcissist ok sorry yep go ahead anybody who offends me is a narcissist right right right so I'm glad that I'm glad that you bring that up and I like to tell my clients you know what the reality is we're all about three decisions away from catastrophic outcomes
ooh right like at any given point right like it it doesn't take a lot to really send yourself down a negative path yeah and nobody's nobody's immune right right we're all vulnerable [00:13:00] uh we we all need to watch ourselves check ourselves and be thoughtful and mindful of ourselves every day
mm-hmm especially in the relationships that we care about most you know those are the relationships that really afford you know they're the ones that we ought to be giving our best in mm-hmm and using those relationships to know how am I doing and how am I showing up
you know right so I'm glad that you bring that topic up that we're not talking about evil malicious people typically in fact I'll tell you a story about a client that I worked with you know recently he was keeping a secret from his spouse and he had been keeping that secret for the whole
time in which they'd been in a relationship he had really struggled in this category of pornography and knew in their relationship that she was very sensitive to that dynamic in inviting intimate and sexual feelings into the relationship for pictures and videos and whatever else that aren't her
sure yeah yeah he really wanted that fidelity for her right and he knew he had the struggle the struggle predated her [00:14:00] so he struggled with this before he even met her he found out very early on in the dating relationship that she had concern and issue about that with past boyfriends and things that she'd been with
And so he knew that if he were going to pursue a relationship with her which he really felt strongly for her he had to get rid of this problem and he set his mind to it in the beginning I'm going to kick this and I'm going to kick it because I know she's not it would hurt her
She might even choose not to be with me if she knew about it right and so instead of telling her I've struggled I'm just going to kick it right I'm going to kick it she doesn't have to be hurt we can move our relationship forward and he justified and rationalized that way for years right mm-hmm fast favored about five years into that relationship and she discovers a few files one day on his phone
Just innocently looking for a a communication that they were having with a mortgage company mm-hmm and stumbled across some files on his phone opened them up realized that there had been a long pattern of[00:15:00] accessing pornographic material and confronted him about it
and at that point was so dear in the headlights with her did he like Right I don't know where those are I don't know where they came from they're not mine all the things and so she had to not only discover it mm-hmm but she had to dig it out of him slowly to get the truth right
yeah and at this point he's just bawling I mean he feels terrible and his terrible feelings are genuine I trust them I believe them I believe he never intended to hurt her right right but what he did in the very beginning was he rationalized and justified keeping some things from his partner that he knew would hurt her because I don't want to hurt her
yep he drove 'em underground and he tried to wrestle with them alone and isolated yep instead of really reaching outside of himself honesty with her and others and getting himself some help right and cause he drove it down and inward and this is a mistake that a lot of individuals make
they realize that there's some [00:16:00] warning signs and red flags in the world yeah and instead of looking outside of themselves and connecting to resources to tackle them they'll hide 'em right they'll drive 'em down inside right somebody tell themselves I got this and I'll figure it out and each time he would make a mistake he's like that's the last time I'm never doing it again
right right like I'm going to get rid of this she doesn't have to know about it and he would justify I'm keeping her safe right I'm preserving her feelings I don't want her to feel hurt right and five years later yeah in recovery we say secrets keep you sick and I tell people you can't get well in secrecy
yeah you don't tell everybody yeah but you can't just like keep this thing that you've been compulsively doing for all this long time and think well I can just sort of fix this on my own and we'll ever know it just doesn't ever work yeah I mean I'm yet to watch that be a good result but but justifications like that is one category right
right well justify inside I'm preserving her right it's a loving thing for me to do not to let her [00:17:00] know right right that's it's the opposite right like for her it's like or for the other person cuz it can be her or him but it could be like this is the most hurtful thing you could have possibly done
right right and it's like well in my but really what's happening is yes I'm trying to protect her but but really it's like protecting yourself from the Absolutely shame which is awful you know it's just like Absolutely we all have that and we just don't want to deal with it yeah not playing don't like dealing with mine either because in almost all cases when I talk with couples and the truth finally comes out mm-hmm
it really is the trust violation yep that was the most that did the most harm every time This this couple and almost every single couple that I work with right it's bad enough that there's this thing going on that you know would hurt me right but what hurts even worse is you didn't let me be a confidant with you
you didn't pull me into it help me understand it and allow me to be part of the the solution right right instead it's almost like you maintained fidelity and loyalty to this thing Right with me [00:18:00] in the dark right and that trust violation almost a hundred percent of the time is the worst violation
that's Oh yeah and the hardest one to overcome right because long after you know individuals get the help that they need and overcome the betraying issue in the relationship long after that exists this question in the mind of the person who was betrayed mm-hmm this question that says how do I know
and what if and man we can what if thousands of scenarios what if he's doing it again what if he's just gotten better at hiding it what if he's just got better at lying right because it's not just that you lost trust in that other person when you've been dece for a long period of time mm-hmm you lose trust in yourself
yeah and then you can't you're like obviously I'm an idiot you know yeah obviously you've gone on 10 years and I didn't even know it like I I'm probably missing everything and then I like lose trust in myself and in every relationship I have mm-hmm that's why it's so like devastating yeah [00:19:00] and and I and I watch that too
I'll watch couples come into a next relationship now and still really struggling with trust and there's nothing about their current partner in my assessment and in their assessment that they can really put their finger on that's creating a lack of trust mm-hmm it probably could have it could be a really healthy connection but because I've been through this distrust in the past mm-hmm
I don't like you said I don't trust myself i I'm paranoid and suspicious of others especially the more vulnerable the relationship becomes right the more that paranoia can sometimes increase mm-hmm and then now that I was the one who was portrayed in the previous relationship I left it cause I wasn't okay with it
I get into the current relationship and now it's my anxiety that's creating the issues and the relationships right and now I create problems for the next right and I I'm I'm so glad you said that Nevin because sometimes we think well the answer is just to get out of it no that's not the answer I mean I'm not saying you shouldn't get out I'm just saying that doesn't fix it
and so sure it's so important for you [00:20:00] guys to be thinking about this if this is a concern for you because if you don't deal with it yeah it's not that you got to deal with it and forgive this other person I mean that's helpful but yeah if you don't deal with it it's going to like poison everything in your future
so so whether you stay you go you forgive you don't you got to deal with it in here yeah cause it just continues to fester and and make problems yeah and both parties and that's that's the other thing that I'll tell couples too you know it's like you know here we find ourselves in this situation and you both need healing
mm-hmm and and if you both need healing and you're willing to do that healing together mm-hmm let's give that a shot best case scenario we can heal and heal the relationship at the same time right but if you're not willing to do it together which I understand there's some situations that are so betraying or hurtful or traumatic um that that maybe you choose not to be with that person anymore
maybe it's the most healthy choice you can make is to leave that relationship right there's still both parties still need to do that work right sure whether they stay together or whether they don't stay together we got to [00:21:00] do that work because it's going to get in the way of a healthy relationship in the next relationship
if I don't do that work it will continue mm-hmm yeah yep yep and So so so I'm yeah I'm really grateful that you bring that up but that's it it really is about that that that betrayal of trust and I for any viewers that are listening right like if you find yourself in that spot where you know you're holding something that would hurt your spouse right
and there's that justification narrative in your mind that's saying I'm protecting them by not letting them in on this right like ultimately I'm being compassionate or I'm being thoughtful mm-hmm by not letting them in on this i I would agree with you Amber that's actually what's happening is I'm protecting myself from confronting the issue
I right probably in a way that needs to be right and I'm protecting myself from the shame that I might feel and admitting to the issue but that's why in in classic 12 step stuff right that's why admitting to myself and to others that there's an issue [00:22:00] is the first step right right and especially to the people who love me the most especially the people who who I owe the most fidelity and loyalty too because most of the time
It's not the actual issue that's going to hurt them the most it's the fact that I'd never had the guts I never found um mm-hmm inside me the strength to let them be more important to me than the vice right right right let me ask you this cuz I'm cuz you brought up like um like the traditional 12 step
mm-hmm and this is the scenario I ran into like recently very recently mm-hmm so and and commonly like it comes up a lot so When I first get a new client I I call myself the defense attorney I see the person then somebody else sees the family member and we're always the bad guy
so I'm like the defense attorney I say listen I'm here for you ma'am defense man get at it so covered but people come see me they're already like dug into this big giant hole right like I was like I know you in a doghouse and and I'm going to help you get out of it cause that's what we're going to do [00:23:00] but most of the time you know somebody's done gotten in trouble
for the first time or the hundredth time or whatever but there's always like more secrets and so one of the first things I say to 'em I'll say What else is in there that they don't know about because I want I want to know what it is so we can decide whether or not we need to like out it because if we get six months down the road and we're doing like really awesome and this stupid thing comes out like there was this other $300 that you owed this drug dealer but you just didn't tell it because you're just like they're already so upset with you and you're just like why pile on it
which I understand but I was like this going to take us back to negative million right like so I'm like you're already in so much trouble yeah yes and I say I will go across the hall and talk to their counselor and I'll say when it out something and I need a free pass go find out if I can get it I'm like please please tell it because it's going to come out in the stupidest way and then you have worked so hard and it's going to destroy you
yeah so there's that scenario absolutely mm-hmm yep but then this is the curve off in [00:24:00] 12 at work the amends making there's this concept of like you make amends except wherever it would cause harm mm-hmm there's some situations like the classic one is like I slept with my brother's wife
mm-hmm and he doesn't know it should I tell my brother mm-hmm that kind of situation so recently you know almost any time there's like any of these things I'm like this is have the secrets I owe some money there's just credit cards they don't know about whatever whatever whatever I'm like let's just get it out because you're in so much trouble
like really it's not going to be that much more right now like on day one therapy yeah so we'll just do it but sometimes it's big and when I say big usually it's like like a big long-term affair yeah and I got to be honest with you ne I'm like I don't know I'm glad you told me because we are going to talk about like yeah what do you think
and maybe I'm telling him wrong that's why I'm asking you because I told you like I'm a defense yeah no I no I love it you know I I love what you're saying and I I absolutely agree with you almost the exact same conversation with my clients as well especially when [00:25:00] betrayal has come out and and and that's why they're coming in right
is they're like we're dealing with all this betrayal I mean that's that can be a really common reason that couples first come to talk to me or we get in four or five six sessions you know they know they're having tons of conflict they can't figure out why and then all of a sudden it just blows out
Right right you know now I know you know and so almost the exact same conversation I'll have with people right like look we are like at the bottom right now yeah right right and we want to build from here and I have a lot of confidence I can help you do that if you choose that it's the right thing for both of you
right and before we start climbing that ladder mm-hmm please please if there's anything else that would shock alarm or hurt your spouse if they will find out let's put it there now right because right because we want once we start rebuilding trust taking those steps we need to to heal mm-hmm and move forward with trust
we don't want to violate it again right after we've had this good period because next time we have that good period they're going to be suspicious of it the whole time right oh oh yeah we're going to [00:26:00] go back a million times yeah you know way back here and it's going to be a hundred times harder to even get the ground back
right yeah so I love that conversation now you're talking about really sensitive information right right yeah like the basic ones mm-hmm like the money and the this and that like and I told bomb this when I told you I told like whatever we going to get those out because it's not going to hurt us anymore
yeah and in most scenarios the way that I like to think about it and I will and I'll tell the therapist that work with me too we really need to play those individual by individual case yeah I think there's a lot of dynamics that can be playing out in their world right and it's hard to just give a blanket statement
right but the blanket statement that I would say is that in most cases if that thing coming out has high probability of hurting the person you're trying to build the relationship with the most the primary person so you used an example earlier of like you know the brother or whatever right or a neighbor or something like that
Right right if that relationship isn't the [00:27:00] primary one we're focused on healing then maybe but if it has capacity to really hurt this primary person that I'm trying to build trust and loyalty and fidelity with rebuild that healing with to hurt them you know uh specifically and individually
most of the time I'm going to be on the side of it's better for them to know especially if there's a pretty good chance it may come out in the next five to 10 years right right and that's a good point that it may come out because one of the things I said and I said in this recent situation I said listen You just got busted for this
mm-hmm and what happens when they found out this big secret and and I talk about this on the channel all the time mm-hmm the person goes crazy mm-hmm and they start mm-hmm I mean the f b I could not investigate as good as this person I promise you like they developed skills I mean it was so obsessive
I can't even explain it and it's miserable for both they dig through every so I'm like Dude I promise you they're in this state over [00:28:00] there so yeah fences that it's going to get found is pretty mm-hmm like I you may have been doing it for 20 years and it not got found but now we're on a different now the FBI's in here so Yeah
yeah it's tough and and then the other dynamic with that too right is that for the sake of the person who's done the betraying I really want them to get to a place where they feel like they've started with a clean slate inside yep right that that their heart is kind of like you know what all the nasties out there
mm-hmm and and and now as I rebuild I'm not rebuilding with the like yeah I'm being a lot better but there's still that thing I feel a ton of shame about right and there's still that thing that I've never quite admitted to anybody there's still that thing right that that every time they want to feel
new and fresh keeps calling their mind back too not right right don't feel good about yourself cuz look at this thing nobody knows about right so they're so on their behalf too but but certainly there's going to be situations like you know substance abuse or betrayal or whatever where
where you know um somebody else's spouse right maybe I haven't gone and admitted [00:29:00] and whatever to them you know and and mm-hmm you know that that relationship's over here this is the one we're primarily focused on this is the one we're we really want to create you know and rebuild trust in the most agree
yeah there's going to be some of those peripheral things that's almost impossible to heal to and like you said maybe even avoiding doing harm in those other relationships right like But in this one I really owe my partner right the most loyalty and fidelity of anyone if I'm going to call them you know you know my partner my spouse
that's what I'm saying that's part of the commitment that I'm making is you are my person right and so I need to be I need to be the most transparent Right and loyal with you than any other all right let me throw a slight curve ball at you here yeah cause I'm so excited to have the experience I love this
I've been on the other side of this betrayal trauma mm-hmm like I've had this happen to me and I'm not sure I would want to be told every time mm-hmm it was so hurtful I don't even know like I want to be fixed mm-hmm so that's why I'm like I don't [00:30:00] there's some things I'm just not even sure like yeah
you know it is just it's just awful and so it's just like do I even like it's like you do but you don't mm-hmm you know and sometimes even when I'm working with like the family member and they want to know everything one of the things we do and I don't know if you do this I'm like stop looking
because you don't want to know yeah because once you know you can't unknow yeah stop like you already know this general issue is there you do not need every detail and I like we beg them please yeah turn the FBI badge in like give the black light back like turn the passwords over
mm-hmm because it's not I mean at some point knowing more and more and more every detail Correct I promise you it's not helpful can you speak to that correct yes correct yes and thank you for differentiating this yes so I was talking with a colleague of mine just actually two days ago about the same thing
mm-hmm right mm-hmm so when I talk about like knowing everything what I'm really talking about is knowing all the big categories of the things yeah right so for example knowing that my partner cheated right cheated [00:31:00] meant you know this this is a general category cheaters meant
Getting deeper emotionally connected to three different people at work more than she should have right kind of an emotional fair right and then one other person it went to intercourse right right right like understanding this is what happened right like Right those general categories we're not talking
Details of those intimate interactions right right um cause those you're absolutely right have power and capacity to really relive now and replay in the mind of the person who's been betrayed over Oh yeah and over and over again right yeah we need enough information that it shuts down the anxiety of the mind
that wonders what if what if right but not so much detail that we're painting vivid pictures for the person right that they may never be able to move past especially if their goal is to be to preserve the relationship right right so we want to know it's the natural response of the betrayed person mm-hmm
to obsessively want to know every single Yes detail yep and [00:32:00] it's a balance to try to give them enough you almost can't even control it mm-hmm yes so it's almost like I don't know it's just this hard thing and when I'm working with a family I'm like I'm telling you stop mm-hmm yep because once that door is opened right
like it was shut before I had safety at security right once that door is opened the mind and the anxious mind and I I do a couple YouTube videos on this specifically right like how the anxious brain works but Right the anxious mind wants to step through that door and it starts rattling off thousands of what ifs
right what if this time you were with somebody what if that time you lied to me what if this time this what if this thing you've said to me in our most intimate moments you said to them what if you know like all these things right and the brain just rattles off and really there's no limit to that
what if it can be as catastrophic as the imagination can take it oh it can bigger no longer and de the worse it gets mm-hmm and not only is like what if this happened but it's even worse because when it [00:33:00] happened I know you were thinking this yes you thought oh my 5000 levels deep
absolutely right so so that's why in that kind of confessional period of the healing right where mm-hmm the individual is really trying to be accountable and open about Hey here's the ways in which I betrayed you never should have had to dig this out on me this is al always something I should have protected for you
right we want a balance of enough information that we're able to address all the major categories that the betrayal occurred in right um and but not spend so much time in the minute details that those details themselves start to re-traumatize right an individual so and there's a balance there with anxiety
a person needs a certain amount of information to help that anxious process come down mm-hmm but there's a point at which too much information sends it right back up again oh my gosh yes and so working with a you know a trained professional that you know has helped couples screw that mm-hmm
There's a balance there for sure but what I'm talking about when I say keeping [00:34:00] details is I'm talking about like oh and there's this other person over here that I work with that I don't want to tell you about what happened with them because I don't really want to have to like quit my job
right or fire that employee right cause of this issue that we had but you know three days three years later you might find out I never told you about her and Right I've been working with her for the last three years like guess what's going to happen in our relationship when that comes out right oh does everything and I could have sincerely really healed that betrayal trauma for my spouse for the three years
been completely loyal and faithful yep but because this has come out now three years later mm-hmm and it's somebody I work with mm-hmm and I kept that one in the dark that's the type of stuff I'm talking about said no let's get all that stuff out especially with the person we're rebuilding trust with
yeah there oftentimes you know when we do the work with the family member we'll say like stop stop looking do not read the journal do not look at the stop but they can't and we get that like mm-hmm it's like when I'm working with the [00:35:00] alcoholic and I say stop drinking and then they drink tomorrow
like okay like I'm you should stop but I kind of you know I get it all the same time and then let's say they can't stop and or they stop for three days and then they realize back cuz the family does that too you know so and then they just want to know when they're like grilling this person interrogation style like the spotlight you know like or should the person's being grilled due should they tell it
should they not tell it because the last name should I tell should I you know what do I do yeah you know it's tough if they have the opportunity to be working with someone I think taking cues from that objective third party can be helpful right like there's no there's very few couples that are going to be trained to know how to manage this type of dynamic in their relationship together
so if there can be an objective third party and that could be a spiritual leader that could be a mental health therapist that could be an addiction recovery coach a professional that could be a family member who objectively loves and cares about this relationship right but allowing somebody maybe outside of us to help navigate some of that is really important
but [00:36:00] the other thing that I've found when on the betray E side the person who's been betrayed when there's this obsessive piece that's happening in the relationship one of the other things that I've found that can really help calm that is actually shifting focus in a little bit different direction
one of the first therapeutic goals that we have for a couple especially on the betray side the person who's been betrayed is for them to examine the meaning that they attach to the betrayal right so we want them to start looking at how am I internalizing what my partner has done right
like oh yeah what is the what are the messages I'm connecting to it oh yeah I'm having I say means you didn't it means you didn't respect me it means you don't even care about me it means you think I'm an idiot mm-hmm maybe I start questioning am I loveable
oh yeah I have worth anybody am I worthless right like am I inadequate right like all these messages and most of the time those messages are [00:37:00] I would say all the time those messages just yeah those are like those are pretty much always Yeah and they're not accurate right it always means something about something they're dealing with
yep it really it's something that's going on with them and I can tell you that from defense attorney standpoint you like it's about them not about you absolutely right because the healthier person is the easier they do things like trust and loyalty and love the less healthy their internal world is the harder it is for them to give that in relationships outside of them
right and but when we're in a couple's relationship we do this thing where All of a sudden because I'm in this relationship with you I take my heart and I take my value and I kind of offer it into the relationship and I say to myself I'm going to use you and my interactions with you now to know you're going to be my expert witness of my own value
yeah and that works pretty well right uh when when the relationship's healthy on both sides but when my partner's not a healthy person and I've just handed to them I've made them an expert excuse [00:38:00] me I've made them an expert on my value and then something like this comes out all of a sudden all that they've done has everything to do with my value
mm-hmm and that's devastating right mm-hmm like that can lead me in very devastated places and so I've become almost hypervigilant about needing to know more and know more and know more not because actually the details are helpful to me at all but because I am gleaning out of this more and more and more toxicity about my value and my worth
mm-hmm like it's almost like I'm being devastated deeper and deeper and deeper the more that I find out and a lot of times we want to cut off that process for a minute and help that person really take a look at what am I internalizing as I find out about these details right right because we want to separate
the performance of your partner whatever thing they did the be their behaviors we want to separate that from your value for a minute especially in this category right because and oftentimes as couples start to heal that as that the person who's been betrayed starts to [00:39:00] realize okay like a lot of this acting out behavior actually had a lot more to do with the unhealthy in my partner's world right
than with me right lots of times we'll watch that obsessive needing to know right right yeah it's someone's always about an insecurity or some unmet this other person has awesome but I'll tell you it is very complicated cuz not only does the betrayed mm-hmm person got betrayed person mm-hmm start to attach those meanings but to add like 400 levels of other psychological matrix stuff the person that's doing the betraying
will oftentimes manage to convince themselves of that yeah and that's what I talk about all the time as far as addiction the emotional justification that a person has to mm-hmm just tap dance that they have to go through to justify these continued bad decisions that don't fit with their value system is a maze of spiderweb
They'll set traps for the other person yep they'll make the other person out like a jerk they'll set traps for that other person to prove to themselves[00:40:00] so it's even harder mm-hmm because the other person on some level kind of is thinking that and that's how they've like convinced themselves like it's all right to do that
mm-hmm they may have told you that like and that makes it like really messy yeah amber this is one of the reasons you're so fantastic I mean you have a tremendous mind for understanding these things complexities right and that's why there isn't like you know easy staple decisions to just apply to any betrayed process
right because for sure right like I find myself empathizing with both sides of this betrayal problem all the time right right I worked with a woman who uh you know developed an emotional affair right in her relationship with her husband and of course wrong bad shouldn't happen
right right and as you dig into that a little bit more we find out that there's always been a difficult struggle in the relationship for both of them to connect Yep in emotionally meaningful ways both of them come from from environments that they didn't learn how to do this connection thing
right they both have felt in a [00:41:00] drought for a long time and then as I learn a little bit more about this woman who did the betraying right and her past her relationship with her parents her relationship with her siblings long story short she's been walking around with a lot of insecurity about her worth and her value for years before she meets her husband
oh yeah right like desperately needing words of affirmation and attention mm-hmm external reinforcers that way to know that she has any value at all and when it wasn't happening a lot in their relationship nobody's fault they're just not good at knowing how to give each other emotional connection
Uh she became very vulnerable to it yes when it was offered in a workplace and on the one hand yes never should have happened for sure no couple d you know deserved to go through that on the other hand I can totally see how she ended up vulnerable to that and how she got there and where she got
that doesn't make her a malicious evil person but you definitely want to heal what's going on there right so that it doesn't continue to hurt people that she loves and doesn't continue [00:42:00] to injure and tear apart her opportunity for meaningful relationships in the future
So that's on the person who's done the betraying on their side some of the first steps that I start with as we work with couples is taking a look at do I have a good understanding of what the betraying behavior has been like can I define it and can I name it can I own it second
what were my triggers like what are the things that led me there to this thing that I wouldn't typically do it doesn't even match with my moral and values that I right how did I do this right how make this choice mm-hmm and then the third part of that is what are the root contributors to those triggers that set me up to do this behavior
right so taking even one step look deeper in saying what's going on in my world or in my past and present that even makes those triggers triggering yeah like why was I vulnerable to that in the first place right because as soon as I feel that the vulnerabilities and the root contributors now all of a sudden the triggers lose as much potency as they had before
And I'm much more likely to align [00:43:00] with the core values that I hold right and that I desire in relationships I'm not white knuckling staying away from problematic issues anymore I literally don't desire that I don't desire them and there's nothing inside me that needs them
So then we're just dealing with bad habits to break and a couple can be off to a lot's healthier dynamic so we want to look at that not just what is the the bad behavior that's hurt my relationship but what are the triggers and then deeper than the triggers what are those root contributors that have occurred in my life that make those triggers right
triggering and I would probably even add one more layer on to that cuz that's so you know it's complex everything's com nothing's black and white there's no good evils it's just not like that but You know it's like what did I do why did I do it why did I want to do it mm-hmm but along the way and this is specific especially with addictions how did I convince myself and rationalize and justify and where was I lying to myself a long way
because with addictions if you don't identify that it's going to keep happening to you because [00:44:00] it's so sneaky and the way this works is never as malicious as it seems it's like I have to be careful cuz I like binge like Netflix series and stuff I can't even start it unless the whole thing's there
cause I'm just going to like stay up for four days and watch this's just the way I'm cause I'm that way but yeah I love some of the newer ones are so cool because they have these really complex characters and the reason I like 'em is you know like the old Breaking bad series it's just like one choice
yeah yeah probably not great but you kind of like had a justified reason mm-hmm but then that makes you make another bad choice mm-hmm and then that makes you tell this lie and so then that makes and so what happens is you get stuck in this web of mess and you can kind of see it on these shows
that's self-deception right yeah that begins with some justification and rationalization and I would say as far as couples go betrayal trauma goes anytime that I find myself rationalizing something that I know would hurt my partner that deserves a step back and a long stare right oh yeah
warning sign yeah big red clue [00:45:00] like I say if I'm doing something that I know I can't tell you mm-hmm right and if I no matter if I have justifications in my head or not right I'm probably going down this path because you're right that's how it works
like justification and rationalization it'll take the imperfections of my partner yeah and it'll gimme lots of good reasons why it's okay that I'm doing this thing if I'm not careful with myself and so we want to catch that early if we can and instead address the thing that's hurting in the relationship instead of finding these alternative ways um you know to keep secrets and to act out and things right
Let's let's get to the heart of what that relational issue or need or concern is early you know mm-hmm and if not early it's never too late right right like we can always go in and start to tackle these really hard things you know and just so we leave people on a little bit of a happy ending
I don't know if this is your experience but my experience is couples that can get through this I always say people that conquer addiction are the strongest healthiest people out there because you [00:46:00] have to you can't get through it without developing some serious muscles mm-hmm and so couples that can get through this in a healthy way mm-hmm
mm-hmm can really have a deeper relationship than they ever had before yep and in fact I watch with couples who recover in their relationship and move beyond really difficult things if we say that difficult moments in our life Yep have the power to pumble us Yep or refine us right whichever direction we choose
This type of dynamic in a couple's relationship is heavier than many couples will go through but if they go through together it has the potential to elevate that intimacy that connective power in their relationship beyond the average the couples who have the best relationships have navigated the most difficulty
oh yeah successfully they have the most depth they have the most meaning they have the most meaning connected to their love and loyalty to one another they know where they've been they've seen really hard things right they've managed to overcome it together [00:47:00] so there absolutely is hope and
that's why I'm passionate about this work is I want individuals to know that no matter where you've been and what you've been through if healing is what you desire healing is possible right if health and wellness are what you're after It's possible it's going to take a lot of work yeah there's no magic
very dust yeah I don't recommend you go out and script your life just to do this but yeah if you find yourself here you know you can get better and when I say couples are stronger individually you're stronger better people and as a couple you're stronger I don't mean like okay this happened and then we just
made a promise not to ever bring it up again and crammed inside that's a way to make sure other bad things happen yeah but I'm talking about like really did the work here and dealt with it you can come out the other side and you can come out better and stronger I mean most people don't they're not going to say I'm glad this happened
okay yeah saying oh of course of course we're not saying that but they may say I'm glad I have grown in this way yeah or this new thing that we have or something like that yeah yeah cuz some of the most significant growth in our [00:48:00] lives comes out of these really tough moments these defining moments
And we don't have to go looking for those that trouble because life will naturally present stumbling blocks to each of us oh yeah no worries yeah none of us are going to get through this mortal journey without some of those so right yeah so Nevin tell everybody like where they can find you if they want to like learn more from you or maybe even seek your services or you have this new membership thing too I think right
for couples yeah no thank you yeah so on YouTube at renew relationship counseling you can check out our YouTube channel and we've put out close to a hundred videos now on on marriage and marriage relationships and how to support healthy relationships so take a look at that
The membership that you're talking about what we've done is in working with thousands of couples over the years there's some really core principles we call the renew system mm-hmm uh really core principles for couples who are looking to strengthen their relationship maybe they've been through some betrayal traumas maybe they haven't but they want to strengthen their communication
they're running [00:49:00] into connection issues intimacy issues uh uh trying to figure out how to resolve differences in their relationship these are topics that almost any couple trying to build a relationship is going to Oh yeah have questions about we've taken those topics and we've packaged them into materials
videos activities worksheets and things that couples if they'll do together can really expedite growth and healing mm-hmm in their relationship and we've made those available to couples um uh through a membership so for 25 bucks a month they can access all those materials
yeah plus our live q and as and webinars and things and give their relationship a shotgun into growth and wellness and healing and what I don't know if you have come across this Nevin but we have online courses and memberships too
mm-hmm and what I like about that it's not so much that I say like oh you can just do this instead sometimes you can actually mm-hmm just do that instead of counseling but You know people come to counseling let's say you sit with your counselor for an hour and then it's like you know 20 minutes of him saying what he didn't like this week and 20 minutes of her [00:50:00] saying what she didn't like this week
and then the counselor trying to make sure everybody feels validated and heard and like five minutes of the counselor wisdom comes out right and both people are so mad they're not listening to you anyway because they're just like I can't believe you said that what I like about putting the information educat because then you can absorb it and we can learn and you're gaining skills
mm-hmm you know we're growing and learning to me it's the fast track and if you want to do counseling on top of that even better but y'all know if you've been to a couple's family counseling session y'all know what that's like it's a lot of time like Yeah
y'all go talk to Nevin about that yeah almost all of the appointment can be taken up in that right and it's necessary for those couples who can't communicate yeah it's necessary that they have a person trying to help them you're right though
the problem is there's just very little time for the actual principles that they need to learn to apply that one day gets them to a point where they don't need the counselor anymore right yeah so I always say that for couples I think it's a good starting point for couples to access those types of materials because if your relationship if all of it's needing is a little bit more good healthy [00:51:00] information Yep
it can get you to your goals as as quickly as you want to get there right you can access those on demand night or day 24 7 and if you find that you're having a really hard time applying those principles right then you get yourself a next level of support coaching or marital counseling or Right
whatever it is you bring in a support person now that you're learning these materials they're helping you in the application part of them and many couples need that right but Right but if you just focus on the application part and you're not giving yourself access to those principles yep in the in between times you're really you're relying on a 50 minute appointment maybe once a week maybe twice a month
to try to cover ground that you could be self-studying daily to me that's the best if you're only going to do one I say do the education I think at least start there yeah more than I would do the education so this is me telling you sometimes you see the hush and quit complaining and listen has this counselor's been doing this 150 years and they've learned some lessons and then us counselors we're sort of taught not to like interrupt the session and [00:52:00] make it about us
so we don't even stop going to teach you that This is a good way to do it so you guys check Nevin out I've put the link to your website in the description but you guys can also find Nevin on YouTube will you say the name of that one more time just renew relationship counseling on YouTube
awesome thank you so much this has been interesting I could literally go on about this Brad so Amber you're fantastic bring it in yeah I'm so grateful you'd have me
