When Your Addicted/Alcoholic Loved One Isn't Experiencing Any Consequences... Do This
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[00:00:00] Today, I'm going to be talking to you about how to very strategically confront denial, especially in circumstances where it feels like the person isn't really feeling the heaviness or the problems of their addiction, basically when they're not experiencing the consequences. It's like, how am I ever going to get this person to see that they really do have a problem, that it's going to ruin their life?
It's And mine and other people's, if they don't address it, if everything seems to be going their way, we actually got this question. In our, private memberships group yesterday
And I thought, Oh, that's actually a really good question. And I do have an answer for you. In fact, I'm going to show you how to bypass some of those external things and go straight to the heart of the matter.
This is actually one of the things that we teach inside of our Invisible Intervention course, which is our method for getting [00:01:00] someone out of denial and into recovery, particularly if you're dealing with someone that you might consider a threat. Addict or alcoholic, meaning at least one and maybe multiple parts of their life are still seem to be going okay, but they have this addiction, but they feel like since they're functioning and they're not having all these other problems that they are fine and that they don't have a problem.
There is a way to get through to this kind of problem. Sit through in this kind of situation. Now, from the family member's perspective, it can feel frustrating because in your mind, it's like this person is ruining the finances. They're digging a, major hole in their relationships. They maybe are going to get legal consequences, all the things, and honestly, those external consequences. Typically take a long time to happen, a lot longer than you might think. Cause you're like you feel like this behavior is so risky. Oh my gosh, this bad, terrible thing's going to happen. And so you keep saying it to the person over and it doesn't happen and it doesn't [00:02:00] happen.
And then you're thinking, oh my gosh, like why does this happen? Just keep working for them. Why do they keep getting away with this? Are they ever going to learn? And in your mind, it feels like there really are no consequences for this person, but there are actually consequences. They're just hidden consequences.
And in fact, if you can bring these. Hidden consequences to the surface. They're the ones that matter most. Those are the consequences that when people really become aware of them and acknowledge them, these are the ones that are actually going to cause your loved one to confront the issue and get out of denial and realize that.
It's taken them to a place that they don't want to go. All those big giant external consequences are important. I'm not saying they're not important, but the thing about these external consequences, whether it's a big fight you had, a DUI oh, and a drug dealer money, or. Whatever it is, it's so easy in your own mind [00:03:00] to come up with these like one off reasons why that particularly bad thing happened.
That was only because this, and that's only because my wife, she's all uptight and she gets upset about everything. I was just running short on money this week that, normally that doesn't happen. And it's we find these ways of. Minimizing them and they really just don't hit home nearly as much as you think.
Even the ones you think are the biggest, even the one that's probably most surprising to people, is when someone actually overdoses, the loved one actually had a mega withdrawal seizure.
Related to the addiction. And as a family member, you're looking at this person and you're thinking, Oh, they're going to see now, like if literally almost dying doesn't get your attention. What's going to get your attention. But honestly, those hardly ever get people's attention.
And I know it's crazy. It gets the family members attention because guess what? You're the one that actually experienced it. Especially if you were there. You saw it. It was scary. It was. Horrible, it was traumatic. But [00:04:00] a lot of times they don't even remember what happened So they've heard about it It doesn't hit home with you Nearly as much as it did the family member these big giant medical things.
But there are ones that will get people's attention and what it is it's actually You When someone can realize that they're not being the person that they want to be, as in they're not congruent with their own values and morals and responsibilities and things that they truly deep down inside think are important, to be honest with you, when they realize that's just not happening, and the reason it's not happening is because of this X, Y, or Z behavior, that We'll get their attention and I know it's easy to like, listen to me say that and say how can they not see that when they got the DUI when we can't pay the bills because they're spending all the money on drugs or whatever.
Like I said before, those external things, it's very easy to make an excuse for why that thing happened that one time. [00:05:00] But. When they look inside and they are not proud of who they are, that is a very uncomfortable feeling. That feeling of guilt will actually prompt someone to want to change. Now you've got to be careful with this because if you purposefully try to push someone's guilt button, like you try to put the guilting on them, like the Catholic Jewish mom guilting on someone, It doesn't provoke guilt, it provokes resentment because they can feel you trying to make them feel guilty and that makes them angry.
So they, it provokes resentment when you do it that way. I'm going to tell you how to Bring that to the surface, but you may actually want to get Like a pen and paper out for this. This is actually a skill i'm going to teach you today Again, this is like one of the skills from our invisible intervention It's one of the skills that we teach inside of there in the new 3.
0 version, which i'm super excited about Literally just finished all the videos for it. Just waiting on the last ones to be edited. We've got nine new skills in it and this is one of them. What you want to do here is, you want to stop and you want [00:06:00] to think to yourself, this is where you may want to get the pencil and paper out.
Once you just stop, won't you think about this person that you care about, your loved one. And I want you to think about how do they see themselves as far as who do they want to be. For example, it's really important for them to be a good father. It's really important for them to be a good provider.
It's really important for them to finish their college education. It's really important for them to live a healthy lifestyle. I want you to stop and think about this person and what are their core values. Now. I'm going to tell you right now already, you're going to get blocked because as soon as I'm asking you to do this, you're immediately, you're going to be defensive about it and you're going to say, yeah, but if they really cared about that, they wouldn't be doing this and that and the other.
I don't want you to do that. This is stop. Stop all those automatic thoughts. You're asking yourself, who do they want to be? Who do they see themselves? What is it that they pride themselves in? What are their like hardcore values? I understand that they're probably not living according to [00:07:00] them. The worst thing you can do is come and tell someone you're, if their value is being a good father, that they're being a terrible father, that they're not providing for their family.
It's Even though those things are true Again, when you try to go straight into the guilt button, you actually you're trying to push the guilt button But you end up pushing the resentment button and that one's no good. It works against you Okay What you want to do is you want to first you want to identify this?
And you want to bring it to the surface and the way you bring it to the surface is you just articulate it All you have to do is see this in them and let them know that you see this in them. I call it You Identifying their good intention, right? If you did nothing more than make one little tiny statement like I know how important it is for you to be here for your kids because your dad wasn't there for you.
Bam, end of story. If you can make one little statement like that, it goes straight to the heart of the matter and they will feel so heard and seen and understood on such a deep [00:08:00] level. They will immediately their first thought will be That's right And their second thought that they probably won't say out loud, but the second thought they would have is they're going to think, and I'm not doing a great job at that lately.
If you say you're not doing a great job at that lately, resentment button. If you say, I know how important this is to you. I know how hard you work on this and you see them for their pure, true heart intentions. That is what's going to surface it. And when you surface it, that is also simultaneously going to get them to look at it and also for them to be like, that is really important to me, or I always have said, I was going to achieve that goal or whatever it is, and then they become aware.
Of the discrepancy between their value, their intention and their behavior. This is how you get them to see it. Now, if you want to take this another level of two deeper, then as you got your notebook and your pencil and everything out, and you're thinking about, this [00:09:00] person's perspective. I'm talking about from their point of view, I don't care if you agree with it or not, but how they see themselves and their situation.
So now that you've identified their good intention, their value, I want you to also on your piece of paper write down in your mind what are the pressures that they feel on a regular basis. For example, something like, I know you feel the pressure to be a good provider, I know you feel the pressure to make everybody get along and everyone around you is fighting.
I know you feel the pressure to support your wife while she's feeling sick. I know you feel the pressure to be strong for your family. Think through their lens. What are the pressures that they feel? And then one more thing I want you to think through is what are the obstacles That they face in trying to pull off those good intentions and in trying to manage or negotiate all those pressures, what are the obstacles that they feel or what are [00:10:00] the obstacles that they run into, but they don't have enough time or, they have a job that doesn't pay enough or, their in laws don't treat them well, whatever it is that they perceive as the things that are getting in their way or that they have anxiety, whatever these things are.
Once you have these key pieces of information, if you can do a really good job of verbalizing that you understand these things to this loved one, if you can do all three of these, you are going to literally take that denial law, that depression law, Offensive wall that I'm not listening to you all and you are going to sledgehammer through it.
I'm not trying to brag here but usually I can listen to a new client for 10 or 15 minutes and all I'm listening for is what is their perspective and Master skill. What is their perspective that no one else wants to hear? Let me give you some examples just from this week. Client's perspective, you're trying really hard not to drink.
In fact, like you've only drank three times this whole [00:11:00] year, but because you've recently had a relapse, it's like all that trying doesn't matter. And everyone around you thinks you're not even trying. I can list to a new client for 10 minutes. I can surmise that information. If that's them, I can say that to them.
And immediately they're like, yeah, that's right. And then we're, and then at that point we have a working relationship and we can talk about whatever, and we can solve this problem from there. But if I don't do that. If I skip that part, that is the most important part by saying something like I'm listening to their whole story and I'm like yeah, you did all this, but you're not going to meetings and you didn't call your sponsor and you didn't get that sober link that your wife told you to get or whatever.
If I come out of the gate saying that, I'm just going to be one more person who doesn't understand them or get them. And they may go through with the session because they promised their loved one they would do it, but they're not going to. They're not going to care of anything I have to say, and it's not going to be helpful.
You have to start always from that person's perspective. Another one this week that came up was listening to someone. [00:12:00] This is happens all the time is 12 steps just really aren't for me, right? The person's thinking it just doesn't help me to go to those meetings. I, there's all kinds of reasons for that.
Because I hear the same thing over and over because to be honest, like my lifestyle is just very different than their lifestyle because I don't like the religious stuff because I don't believe in powerlessness. That's weak. That's the coward's way out. There may be a lot of reasons, but when you're in the.
Addictive person's point of view, if you have any negative thing to say against meetings, counseling, treatment, it doesn't matter how valid or legitimate your reasons are. Immediately, everyone around you is going to think, they're going to roll their eyes and they're going to think, Oh my God, it's always excuses with you.
Like apparently your family's not even worth going to a meeting for. Really? That's what everyone around you is thinking. And so when you're in that position of being the person in the [00:13:00] doghouse, nothing, no one listens to anything you have to say. No one, everyone thinks everything you say is manipulative.
Everything you say is trying to get out of something because of that. Because of that, those other people, the counselors, the family members, the sponsors, they miss the truth of the heart of the matter. And the truth is that deep down inside, they don't like who they've become. They are disappointed in themselves.
They want something different. Now there are some things blocking them from being that person, from getting those things. But if you can just acknowledge that you, I see you. I see what you're trying to do here. I know the hardships you're facing. And I actually believe you when you say that. I believe you when you say there's some legit reasons why 12 step doesn't work for you.
And I'll even add on to that and plus this and this other thing about 12 I know, right? And then we're like, we're right here on the same page, right? There's I know you really don't want to drink, but your anxiety is going through the roof and you're almost having a panic attack.
And you needed to get through the [00:14:00] day, right? It's saying, I hear you. Other ones are, I know you really want to stop using these pain pills. I know you don't want to do it anymore. I can tell like you're freaking miserable and you really desperately want out of this trap, but you can't get out of it because you can't just take.
A week and a half off work and you definitely can't stop taking the pain pills and go to work because you're going to be super sick. And you can't like go to HR and say, Hey, I need to go to rehab because you drive a forklift for a living and you're going to lose your job. If you can just see things from their point of view and understand that to be honest with you, their intentions aren't usually.
Bad as far as their big goal intention now When they get in that desperate situation and they're just trying to get a buy with something or they're just trying to not get caught You know, they'll be weasley. They'll lie to you the little sidestep. They'll be scheming or whatever but as far as like why they're doing what they're doing And why they're stuck in this, it's probably not as evil as you think it may look selfish and it will make [00:15:00] them do selfish things, but in their mind they're not trying to be selfish.
They get themselves trapped and I'm not saying they don't have any fault in it. I'm not saying there wasn't some choices they made. It was a whole bunch of choices they made, but the first thing you got to do is you got to understand it from their point of view. What I would like to do for those of you who are watching Live today is I'm going to give you the opportunity to come on here I'm going to put the link up here.
You can pop on here. You will be live with me though. So be aware This is public Share with me what's going on with your loved one. I'm going to give you the exact words to say to them You're going I'm going to ask you about your situation going to tell what it is I'm going to say these words and then I want you to go say those words and then I want you to come back on This live go into the comments and report down there You What happened and that way everybody can see that it worked or it didn't work because I'm promise you this is a Very powerful tool.
And guess what? Not only is this going to work on your loved one who may be a struggle thing, it's going to work on any situation. A difficult situation at [00:16:00] work. Something going on with your kids. You're trying to help them through a problem. This is always the place to start. Any important discussion, negotiation, business deal, job interview, anything.
This is the place you want to start because this helps someone feel like you get me, you see me, we are collaborative, we're on the same page here, we're on the same team. And then you've created this alliance that's now a working alliance. I'm going to go ahead and put that link up here. If anybody feels brave enough to hop on here, then I'm going to give you the magic words to say.
Now if you have no contact with your loved one, it may be difficult to find a time or place to say this, but you could probably still tell me about your loved one. I could probably still give you the words. All right, this is the link. It's the link that starts with StreamYard. That's just the software I use to go live.
And if there's anybody out there that's watching and you want the magic words for your loved one, hop on here. I'll tell you exactly what they are. And while we're waiting on that as always, [00:17:00] there are resources in the description. The new Invisible Intervention 3. 0 is coming out in the next few weeks.
Like I said, I finished up all the videos. I'm super excited about them. And for everyone that's actually already in the Invisible Intervention, You will, everyone will eventually get all of it, but for those of you already in there, I'm going to send an email out next week, probably, that invites the current people that have invisible intervention to be beta testers, and you will get early access, and not only do you get early access to all the stuff, but you, you actually are going to get three Private group coaching calls where I'm just going to hop on with just the beta testers and answer your questions, get feedback from you.
So that I can help you try all the new things. And then you can tell me maybe if I'm. Not communicating something clear. I need to add something in or something like that. If you're already in there, definitely keep out for that. Keep a lookout for that email. If you're not in there, you can totally hop in there.
Whoever's in there. When I send that email out, we'll get the opportunity to be the beta tester, if you want to, it doesn't cost anything, it's totally free to [00:18:00] be the beta tester. So it looks like we have someone hopping on here and joining us. Someone. Rachel, we're going to put Rachel up here. We're going to hear what Rachel has to say.
We're going to see if we can come up with some magic words. Hi, Rachel. Hi. Thanks for joining us. Tell us about your situation. I'm not sure I'm a good candidate for what you're doing today, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I have a son who admitted,
approach. He is homeless for about two months now and he's extremely angry. Stay in my lane. It doesn't, I'm giving him 20 a day just to stay alive where he is. So I'm trying to keep myself out of the bad guy role. Yesterday I helped him, I helped him with the 20 and I, I said to him how much I realized that he's trying his best in his situation.
I just want to get back into basically the good graces with him, have a relationship with him. It sounds like you're not doing awful at it. You're doing actually pretty good given the situation, I think, [00:19:00] because you're, you could be making a bigger, a way bigger mess of this than you are.
So you're doing really good. You're trying to help, but you're not over helping. So your boundaries are great. If I were talking to him right now and I just met him and I said what's going on, tell me about your situation. What would he tell me?
He would tell me, he would tell you that he is in dire straits. He has no one who cares about him. He, no family, no friends.
What would he say is the reason he's in the situation he's in? His father died when he was 16. He, a million things that wrong in his life. Okay. And what are the roadblocks for him? What are the things standing in his way?
So he thinks he's mentally ill.
So that he's, he uses that as a roadblock. Again, he's been doing this for so long that this is who he is. He's always been the cool kid on the block. So I don't think he, I think for him not being, able [00:20:00] to get himself out of this because he refuses to get help from anyone.
Again, he did get to the methadone clinic but I have no way of knowing if he's doing that and cocaine or, what he's doing with all that. So yeah, there's a lot of it's just personality, he's very righteous. Everybody's wrong. He's right. And this has been, All his life.
He's in it. He I don't know that he sees himself in his own way that he's in his own You know in he's in type of mental illness does he feel like he struggles with? depression anxiety he might have borderline personality, he's very he's right now, he seems a little out of touch with reality.
He's paranoid. He's again, he's pretty far into all of this. Okay. And then my one more question, and then I'm collecting my magic words here. I got one more question. How does he see his relationship with you from his point of view?
He hates me to the core. He wants to kill me, the more, yeah, the [00:21:00] more that I have tried to put my boundaries up in terms of what time I will take phone calls and how much money I will give him to help him out. The more he feels abandoned by me and and hates me. Okay. So these aren't, I'm going to tell you in general what I'd say, and you can tweak it little words here and there to make it work exactly for him.
But I would say something like, you really never had a fair shake in life. You lost your dad early. You've had one difficult or traumatic. Situation or loss after the other, like you really were not set up for a fair chance, right? And at this point it's like everyone's mad at you all the time.
Everyone blames you. They're on your case No one wants to help you and talk to you and you're doing the best you can to manage this depression and anxiety and you know that yeah, of course you did some of this to yourself, but you're trying to do better and You No one is there to help you even your own mom [00:22:00] who's supposed to love you the most in the world It's just constantly throwing up the boundaries and the limits and in these dates and it's like you're just stuck You don't know what to do.
I would say something like that. What do you think you would say to that? I think that he would probably say no kidding mom Okay, he's very well versed in his disease and You And has been through rehabs and interventions and all of that stuff. But yeah, that would, I'm willing to try that because again, I want to get on the right, on a good path with him because I love him dearly and if nothing else, just to be him to know I am in his corner.
I'm not against him. And I think you're probably right. I love what you said that he would say, no kidding, mom. So in my mind, that's the version of, yeah, that's right. And that's what you're trying to get to whatever you need to say to make little person that you're talking to say, that's right.
Not you're right, but that's right. That's how, you won this first match, right? Cause he's probably going to say, no kidding, [00:23:00] mom. And then he's going to add on some more. And when he adds on some more, he's going to add to that list of things. You just told him, he's going to tell you even more about what you just said.
And then you're going to repeat that back to him and you're going to reflect that. And then you're going to let that go on for a couple of rounds. Cause it's crazy when you do this and they feel hard and listen to it. Then I just want to keep it on me. They just pour it all out. And so you keep listening until you pretty much got the whole thing that he's trying to tell you.
And then you say, and I really want to do a better job of helping you feel like I'm on your team and then you say your same boundaries And you say so You know if it's before I don't whatever the time of clock it is that he can call or whatever I'm, definitely going to watch for you to call and anytime I can i'm going to pick up that phone before then or whatever So you're saying the same things and i'm going to make sure that I Hold up enough money back to give you, 20 when you need it here and there, whatever.
So you're saying the same thing. You're not really changing your boundaries, but you're making the person feel heard and understood. And you're saying what you're saying is in a, and here's what I'm going to do to help instead of saying, and here's what I [00:24:00] won't do. And that kind of will, will speak to his, no one's on my side thing.
Yeah. So try that and if you get a chance to try it, pop back to this video, go down to the comments and say, Amber, you crazy didn't work or it did work. We're only half worked or let us know what happens. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much for everything. You've really changed my life. Appreciate it. And everybody else.
All right. We're going to pop up Anna, there you are. And I can pop you on. Okay. Here you are. Hello. Hi. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. Sure. Tell us about your situation.
We'll see if we can get some magic words for you. I've been on my own getting sober and successfully working at it, but trying to get my boyfriend who has the money to afford it and just doesn't care, but doesn't want to get sober. Okay. So it's you're trying to get sober and you want him to get sober, but he's got enough money to keep funding whatever he's doing.
And so it's really [00:25:00] hard. He doesn't feel that same pressure to give it up. Exactly. All right. Here's the good news. Lots of rich people and rock stars and movie people get sober every day. So it's not the money. Okay. Lots of people have plenty of money still gets over. All right. So tell me a little bit more about, about him and how he sees the situation.
I don't know exactly what possessed him to start doing the drug to begin with because I wasn't around at that time with him, but he doesn't have a whole lot of friends and friends he does have also do the drug too. So I don't know what drives him or what doesn't drive him to want to continue doing it.
Okay. What would be his positive intentions either with the drug or just in life in general? He tries to be what? That's another battle that I've been trying to figure out with him is cause he says he's supportive of me, [00:26:00] but I've, I don't feel that way because there's so much more things that I've done in our relationship that he still hasn't done for me.
And It's, I don't know, he has like a good relationship with his family and stuff, but they don't know about his drug habit either and tries to keep it away from them and I'm not going to tell them and get in the middle of him and the relationship between him and them and or me. His family also. Good call that, that will backfire on you big time.
That's a smart call there. Okay. So his intention in regards to his family is probably something along the lines of protecting them because he knows that it would really stress them out and upset them, make them worry. That's would be from his perspective, right? And from his perspective, as far as his relationship with you and What happens is you started telling me about his perspective with you, but then you went, which is what we all do.
You jumped into your side. He says he's supportive, but [00:27:00] I do way more than he's in, which I believe you. But let's go back. Let's go back to how he sees it. How does he see it? I've been trying to figure that one out because. He doesn't see a lot of things when it comes between our relationship altogether in my perspective either, but I've been trying to understand his perspective in especially trying to get sober when I am and he's not.
Okay. Would it be fair to say something along the lines of
You love me, obviously. You want to support me going through this, but now that I've got sober, it's like all of a sudden you're feeling this pressure from me that you have to get sober and it feels a little bit unfair because that was my decision that I made for myself and now here I am pushing it on you.
But how do you do that nicely? Just like that. Just would he agree with that summary? I think so. Cause I have asked him when I originally first, like after the [00:28:00] first three months of My sobriety and he said, yeah, it has pushed me to want to cut back, but it's not enough to where he wants to quit.
Okay. So that there it is, that's his perspective, right? So his perspective is something along the lines of watching you get sober has definitely Made him look at the situation differently and he realizes he needs to cut back, but he's definitely not in a position where he feels like he needs to stop totally.
But because I'm getting sober he gets this pressure and that's probably frustrating to him because it's like now I've changed the rules of the game all of a sudden. And he's just expected to go along. Okay. Does it, would that, would he if you said that to him, would you get a nod or that's right, or that's what I've been trying to say?
Probably more a nod than him actually acknowledging that I was right in something, because I think he has a hard time. Saying anybody's right. [00:29:00] I know he has a hard time saying that with me. But that's the key. You're not, you don't want to get him to say you're right. That's the opposite of what we want someone to say.
Because you're right actually translates to shut up, just go away. I don't want to have this conversation anymore. You're right always means that. That's right means You get it. If someone's talking to you, you're like, that's right. It means yeah, we got this together. Me and you we, it means yes.
Like we're right. Or you finally see me. So you're aiming for the, that's right. Not you're right. If you get the, you're right. You'd be like, dang it, and you have to back up. Okay. Okay. So if the thing of it here is if you can see it from his perspective and not knowing him It's hard.
It sounds like he's not much of a talker So it's hard for you have to almost like mind read a little bit but just thinking if I just think about not knowing him his situation if i'm Dating this girl and we're partying up. We're having fun. We're doing whatever and then all of a sudden she gets sober She's putting this pressure on me.
I'd be like, okay, dude, like I support you, but I signed up for this. [00:30:00] That's what I'd be thinking, right? I'd be like, now you changed the rules of the game. You knew I was like this when you met me. Those would be the thoughts. I feel like them are his thoughts and I just don't know how to work to change some of those thoughts instead of being those.
The first thing you do to change them is just acknowledge them. And you just see them and it's hard most of the time. We don't want to do this because we feel like we're adding validating their point of view or we're almost like conspiring with the other side or something like that, but it actually, what it does is it makes the other side put their wall down and then you guys can have conversation and you can say, I know.
I totally change the rules of game. That's not fair. I did the switch up. It's not right. I get that. And he's going to say, I know. And then he's going to be a lot more open because he feels hurt. So try that and then pop back in here and tell us. Tell us what happened. Even if you just get the nod, since he's a quiet guy, if you get a nod, that's probably a big from him, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So if you get the nod, then the body language says a lot. So you were like, when point. Okay. All right. [00:31:00] All right. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck sue, you're up next. If you have your camera on, I don't see you. Your camera, but I see you there. There's Sue. Okay, we're going to pop Sue on here and then Melissa, Jessica, and Liz.
That's our lineup. I see you guys in the waiting room. We're going to bring you on here. All right. Hello. Hey, Sue. Hi. How are you? Wonderful. Tell us about your situation. Been married for 40 years. And I don't know, I would say probably about 10 or 15 years ago, it just started to progress the abuse, the manipulation, the lies.
And I say abuse, it's been for, verbal abuse, emotional abuse gaslighting projecting, you name it, all the, all those things, all those. Yeah. And I enabled, I enabled it. As I was raised in a household, such but now it's gotten to a point where it's just progressing.
I've gotten worse. So I actually, I filed for divorce a year ago because the physical threats were increasing actually filed an injunction as well. Okay. And we [00:32:00] separated haven't lived together in almost a year in that year's time. And about three years ago he had, there was an infidelity caught him in.
And then over this past year, after the divorce and after the injunction he started, 10 month relationship with another woman, and now wants to get back together and has asked me to make some, concession, some exceptions. He's in denial, does he admits that he had, some drinking issues says that his moral failures and character failures are because he's an egomaniac and refuses to quit drinking says that's not the problem.
Been a struggle, even just trying to get through the divorce. So I haven't been, I haven't been doing a very good job. I went off the deep end. Okay. And I want to get back, I want to, I'm trying to circle back around and, I understand if I help myself, it begins to help him.
But I also, helping him helps me. So let me just say, this isn't your magic words. It's just a thought. When you first was saying all that, I was thinking, dude he's got [00:33:00] the wrong argument. If he had any sense, he'd be like, it's the drinking. I'd be like, it's the drinking babe.
I would never have done it. That's what I would have said. But anyway, that's not your magic words, but that's just, that's what I'm thinking. Okay. If he was smart enough, he'd say it's the drinking. Yeah. What does he mean when he says I'm an egomaniac? Is he being funny? Is he being humble? Is he being truthful?
What does that mean? No I, to be honest, I think he's just using it as an excuse. For the behavior for for, having to be in control all the time. For having to always be right, for the lying. The lying and the dishonesty. deceipt is just rampant and has been for many years.
Is there any truth to that he has like tendencies to have to be right or want to be in control of things or difficulty admitting drama? Is there truth in that? Oh yeah, I'll just give you an example. He actually said to me the other day and I said, you seem to have this thing. Need to always be right.
And he said I don't want to be right. I just don't want to be wrong. Okay. Actually. I [00:34:00] know you said that kind of funny, but it's actually probably true. He could have one of these personalities that's actually, okay. So here's what one thing we want to think, what is the positive intention behind being controlling?
Where is that? Cause when we think about someone being controlling, we think negative, that has a negative thought in our mind. Oh, you think you're everything you think you should boss the world. Like we have negative defensive thoughts for example, at least I do, but people that tend to have controlling behaviors, it could come from a place like that, like a narcissism or something.
But most of the time it comes from. Either an anxiety where they have all these like irrational fears that they're managing or a perfectionism where they have a really loud internal critic that's always Criticizing them and pushing them to do better and sometimes that happens if you grow up in a household which you had critical parents and they are always like you need to do better and it's not right and when people grow up in environments like that, they tend to particularly [00:35:00] have a hard time saying I'm wrong because in the childhood, it was not okay or safe to be wrong or to make a mistake.
I think a little bit of that is true. Okay, but then he has also said that he and he's also said he's the black sheep of his family, because he said the only way he could get attention was, to be bad to do bad. So he has this sort of mix between.
A fear of being wrong when people like can't be wrong. I know that it's irritating to everybody else It's like dude, we all make mistakes just admit it but it's coming from some kind of insecurity or fear or perfectionism, right? It's coming from some place inside of them. That's There's certain personality types.
It's if i'm wrong, I make a mistake. I'm unworthy So he's got a little bit of that going on mixed with a rebellious side. So an interesting mix Okay. So does he acknowledge how he treated you at all? He does. He said he, he accepts blame. He said, pretty much everything was his fault but for, and that's only [00:36:00] been recently, but through the years, it's always been my fault.
And he, even at this point, he still refers to me as getting him kicked out of the house, not that he was violent or aggressive. He did take an online anger management course. And shortly thereafter, it got worse. So he actually does have the capacity to admit and he's wrong.
Maybe not in the moment, but like he said, when he says I'm an ego maniac there, it might be a little self deprecation, but there's an acknowledgement of something there. When he says these things, I did these things like. So to me, it's not like he has no humility. He's not a narcissist, right? Like personalities.
So we're not, that's a good, that's good. Yes. I don't think he's a narcissist. I, and he hasn't always, he hasn't always been like this, it's just, it's progressively gotten worse. Okay. So that's really good to know Sue, because what we're trying to figure out is who he really is.
Underneath whatever this mess is he's got himself in, right? Who is he at the heart of him? What are his values? What is important [00:37:00] to him? I'd say family supporting his family success. Is important to him. His
his reputation, is very important to him. He has, I think one of the reasons that he gets into trouble is, one of the things he's always said, and he even said it to me today, he said, I'm not, it doesn't matter what happens, I'm not going to live alone.
He has an intense need. To be with someone at any cost. Okay. When you say he is important to him to support his family, do you mean more emotionally or financially? Financially. Financially. Okay. So he's career motivated and motivated by status and what people think of him.
And so he probably has a high need for attention. So when you say he can't be alone, he needs someone around him. Is it for the attention? Is it, what's it, what is it? Yeah, I would say it's the it's to fulfill something in him that's not there. Okay. Okay. So here's what I would. guess, but I'm thinking that this guy is a hard [00:38:00] worker and he tries so hard to provide for his family and build a career and everybody else probably saw him as great hero, wonderful guy, but because you're close to him, you see his flaws.
And so it was difficult for him to be with you because you're a mirror to the ways that he's not. Measuring up, to be honest, right? And so it's, it was hard for him to be around you because whether you said it or not, it made him feel criticized or not good enough. And so he dealt with that in these.
dysfunctional ways. Okay. Is that accurate? Tell me what works about that and what doesn't work. I would say that was accurate, although I feel like I, I sincerely gave him a lot of opportunities, to where we could work on this together, over the years. I, I I'm sure that you did.
And when I say like you're, I'm not saying that you even were, I'm just saying in his mind, he can't tolerate Somebody thinking something negative about them. I would say that's accurate. Yes. Okay. What's the [00:39:00] positive intention behind that, right? Because on the surface that seems egotistical or something.
What's behind that for him? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm guessing some version of he tries really hard. He probably outworks most people and he tries so hard all the time to do all the right things and make all the right decisions and all the hard things.
Would he say that? Oh yeah, he would say that and he would say that he recognizes that over the last year or so, that he's been making some really bad decisions. But there's always some, there's always some excuse. What is the excuse? What's the theme of the, I know it's a different one, but what's the theme?
It's usually because of me, that I filed for the divorce or, I did this or I did that. Okay. I put up some boundaries. Okay, so from his perspective, he's a hardworking guy, he's tried like everything to be a good provider for his family and yes, he knows that he's not made some good decisions lately, and [00:40:00] he could have been kinder But it feels really unfair that you just abandoned him completely like that.
I yeah,
And maybe yeah maybe there is some maybe there is some truth to that, but I yeah Here's what we're looking for. We're not looking for whether He's right. We're looking for whether I saw you being hesitant Are you hesitant because that might not be exactly the way he sees it or you're hesitant because you're like that's not fair That's not what happened What we're trying to get is how he sees it.
Yeah how he sees it
Yeah I think that he just thinks that it's all my fault. I, I can just tell it seems that's the impression that I'm getting by the, what he does because it's all your fault because that it never would have happened if I hadn't filed for the divorce we wouldn't be in financial straits, not because he's squandered away tens of thousands of dollars, but because I filed for divorce.
Okay. Yeah, but there were problems there before you filed for divorce. Yeah, no, and then that was, something I made [00:41:00] him aware of. And I said, if things that he knew, I had told him that this is, this was going to be outcome if things didn't improve and change.
Yeah. So the way I might articulate that is to say something along the lines, I might not say, and then I made everything worse, but I might say something like, and then the separation just compounded everything. And it made a bad situation that much more difficult, more finance. So that might be the way you could say it with integrity in your heart but see things from his point of view.
Okay. No, and I have, we've had some of those conversations we have. Yeah, and when you do that, does that can you like, almost like visually see the wall coming down, somewhat you had mentioned something to the other colors, that he's I don't believe he's ever said that's right.
Maybe a couple of times, but it's always you're right. You're right. Yeah. Okay. We want to keep going until he says that's right. Yeah. Yeah. And there's other ways people say it. It doesn't have to be that exact phrase, but a lot of times when you're talking and they're going like this, I would count that as it, because they're they're like agreeing.
Yeah. [00:42:00] Yeah, so he may have a different phrase or something, but you'll get you'll know if you've hit the right spot If you hit the wrong spot, you'll also know if you say something that's not exactly right You'll see him either be like make a face. That's like I don't know about that and if you see that face and you can say it seems like maybe I didn't hit the right spot or maybe I didn't say that exactly right and then what will happen if you say that is He'll clarify where you missed And then he'll just give you the answer.
Yeah. Yeah. Because you're not remembering this. And then you say, oh, yeah, you're right. I didn't consider this part. And then you say exactly what he said. And then you're going to get the that's right. Okay. Okay. All right. Try it. So come back and let us know if it worked. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you for sharing.
All right, Melissa, you're up. Thanks for being willing to come on here. That's brave. Yeah. All right. So my alcoholic addict is my husband. He was Clean and sober for 21 [00:43:00] years, we met 14 year or not met, but we started dating 14 years ago. So he was 7 years sober. That was a big deal to me.
I did not want to be with anybody. That was an active addiction or alcoholism or anything. I rarely drink. I don't like all of those things. You're just not a part of my life. Yeah, good call about. Four months ago, he decided that he wanted to start smoking weed. Okay, still for me, that's a hard no I don't want that as part of my life, right?
It's become a big issue. I started going to Al Anon and everything that started when he first started smoking, I did everything that they said don't do and wasn't doing anything they said do. I was You got to try all those things too, right? Yeah. I was angry. I was, I Immediately said I was leaving.
So right away, they told me, don't make any major life decisions or anything within the first 6 months to a year. Okay. So I backed off quite a [00:44:00] bit. I didn't interrogate him. I didn't make mention of a lot of it. In that sense, he made that made him feel like I thought it was okay it was still okay for him to keep doing it.
And then to start doing it more blatantly, because at the beginning, he was doing it before he got home from work or whatever, behind closed doors. Basically, yeah, then he started doing it more openly. And every time we have a conversation about it, every time I say that he gets very angry with me and very that I'm so dogmatic.
I'm everything's black and white with me and there's no gray area. And I said, for this, there really is no gray area for me. Okay. So you're like, you're thinking, dude, this is not what I signed up for. This is not our agreement. Exactly. And he was very, he was an active member of Alcoholics Anonymous when we were together for the first 21 years.
I say that I take that back for 20 years. The last [00:45:00] year we moved and he didn't have his sobriety friend, his fellowship and everything, so he stopped going to meetings. It's changed his perspective on a lot of things, and I've seen the changes. He doesn't see the changes.
I'm a person and I'm like, I don't think you realize that you've really changed. His daughter is absolutely not okay with it either and is like pulling back the relationship. Wants to move out, doesn't want to be a part of the family, not a part of the family, but doesn't want to be as close that is.
As you're talking through with everybody else, what I've heard, what does he value? He values family more than anything. Okay. Okay. This is good. You're giving me a lot of good stuff. First thing I want to say, I want everybody on here to see is a while ago when I said, so you're thinking, this isn't what I signed up for.
You y'all see Melissa. She said, exactly. That's what you want. You want that, right? That's the reaction you want, because that [00:46:00] means you, you get it. And if you say it and you hit the thing wrong, it's totally fine. In fact, even better because then they'll correct you. Not exactly. It was really more like this.
And then you just say that. But when you get that reaction that it's okay, they get it. From his point of view, you're just saying, I don't want that in my life, but you're just jumping to a conclusion. And my guess is actually, it's not it's something other than, I just don't want you to smoke weed.
I don't want you to use substances because tell me the rest of that. So for me, it's, I don't like , The way he acts when he's high, he's just less, he just acts different. Like he's not very communicative. He closes down now to be fair. He's saying, and this is another reason why it's a problem for me.
Is that so we have his son that was murdered 4 years ago. He's really struggling with depression based on that. So he's taking antidepressants and all of these. He's why is it okay for me to take those but not smoke weed? If [00:47:00] weed is what makes me feel better, though, antidepressants, although they change your.
your behavior maybe, or, they change your chemistry and your brain, they don't make him personality. It doesn't, no, I get it. Okay. So it's cause when you go at him about the weed, then these are his defenses. These are his comebacks. You want me to take a pros, what's the difference?
That's his, that, that's how, You hit the wrong button, because what we want is we want the wall to come down and that's the spikes coming up. So you do seem pretty which I think is good. You're clear about what you want. You're clear about it. Before you married him, it wasn't like he was already doing it and then you're with him.
He was over seven years You thought y'all were on the same page and for you it it is black and white You just don't want that chaos in your life. Exactly. Okay, what but he's going to see it as you're being extra, you're being ridiculous, you're being so black and white about this just, it's literally just [00:48:00] because I smoked weed or I did whatever, it's just an automatic, it's terrible, you can't do it in a meeting, and he's you're jumping to conclusions, right?
And that's what he's thinking and he's thinking it's not even causing a problem. I've been through a lot. Oh my gosh. Can't you just give a man one little relax bice or something? Can I have one little thing? That's what he's saying. Okay. So that's what I, that's what I would say to him. I would say.
I would say, you're so family oriented. You, everything you do is for this family and you're sober. You don't drink alcohol. You sacrifice everything you've been through a lot. And then here you are over here, married to me, Mrs. Black and white, no boat, no crap. And I was like, I'm not even giving you one little.
I want to even give you one little break on this thing. And then you can say, I'm going to give you that's fair. Cause really, it's not the weed that bothers me. Here's what it is. It's like when I feel like I'm losing you or you're disconnected. So what you want to address is you don't want to address The weed, the alcohol, you want to [00:49:00] address the real thing, because if he's smoking weed and it's not really doing anything, then whatever you got to have a legit reason more than just like it's wrong or whatever. I don't know if he was smoking weed and you guys had a 13 year old in the third year I'm worried it's a bad influence on our kid or right. You want to go for the. If you're going to talk about talk about the after effects or where it actually is causing problem, not just the substance.
Cause when you just say, I don't think you should do that smoke weed and you just immediately jump on that. Then that's when he starts to think you're just being dogmatic or whatever, and then use his words, the words that he likes to say when y'all get an argument about it, use those.
Okay. . . Try that and see what happens. And then you can say, I know I'm, I know. I'm like, pain the butt, and I have like, all these rules. . And then he'll be like, and then y'all can have a good conversation about it, I think. Okay. All right. All try. Alright. You alright? Jessica, you're next. And then Liz, you are after Jessica.
Hey Jessica. Hey, how are you? ? Good. You got a situation for us. Yes. Me and my [00:50:00] husband have been married for 15 years. Shortly after we got married, I found out that he had a problem with pills. And so for about 5 years, we went through that chaos. And finally, the only thing that helped him to reach out to get help was getting arrested.
Okay. And he did. And after that, then he did go to a nine month inpatient rehab. He came home from that and he pretty much did good for a while, but he did transition to kratom. Okay. And that became a big issue with us. Cause since that's illegal, he thought it was okay. But Yeah, so anything in excess though can be a problem but about last june he had started getting back into heavier drugs again And first it was the denial and lying and gaslighting Then he finally did admit that he did have he was back using and we talked and he wanted to put [00:51:00] things in place that would hold him accountable, which I thought was great.
But then there was no follow through with that. Then it was back into the routine of the lying, the manipulation, the gaslighting. So we tried a joint account. Or he just put his money in it and I could he just wanted me to monitor him Monitor it to make sure the money was being spent for what it was supposed to be spent, right?
So then when I would come to him to talk about it, and i'd be like this isn't adding up Where's this money going to? Oh, yeah, he put you in a place after all Yes, he did and I told you the beginning because I was watching your videos. I was like this is not going to turn out good Because it's going to lead No way It's going to lead into the argument and then I fell back into that investigating role as well So I finally removed myself off the joint account.
I'm like, this is not going to stress me out I'm not going to keep up to where your money's going to sit here and do the good bad role not doing that so this has been going on now since [00:52:00] last june the last three weeks I've just totally shut down. I don't talk to him anymore because I just, I tried the be nice kind of thing.
And it's just given me a lot of resentment. So now I'm to the point where I told him if you're going to continue to lie to me, cause about three weeks ago, I found out where he stole money from me. And he wanted to be accountable and take drug tests, so I ordered the drug test, but he got them from the post office box before I did, and then lied and said that he didn't take them, but they were locked up in his truck still in my jury I was like, then he just turned it when I confronted him, and I was like, this stuff was in your truck.
He's no, it's not. I was like, so somebody's trying to frame you? What's going on? Like, how did it get in your truck? Did the cat put it in there? And I was like, look, if you're just going to keep lying to me, and we can't work through this together and communicate, cause then the it'll just get when I try to talk to him, he'll just get very angry.
And I'm not going to sit there and fight back and forth [00:53:00] with him, right? And so now I've just have not really talked to him in three weeks and I don't know what to do from this point. If I were talking to him and he came into my office and I said, why are you here? And he said, Jessica, may we come? And I say, I know it happens all the time.
Why is she making you come in here? Because she thinks what would he say? She thinks I'm using drugs again, and she thinks I'm lying. But Jessica's crazy. Okay. Okay. And then I might say, if you said it to me, I might say why does she think that? What would make her think that? What would he say?
I
think he would normally just say that I'm crazy and I'm making stuff up. That's probably what he would say to you, but he says it to you to make you show up. Yeah. So what would he say to somebody? He's not just making you like, go away. He's just starting a fight. Yeah. What would he say to me? Somebody else
I would just, Think maybe he would say that I don't really know what he would say to somebody else, but he's very good at, he [00:54:00] cares a lot about what other people think of him. Okay. And I think the reason like he doesn't really want to open up with me and communicate is cause he can see me deal with a lot of stressful things and I can handle it.
And I think he has a lot of shame and guilt that it's not that easy for him because he's He said to me in the past, he's I wish that could be like you. I'm so proud of you because when all this went happened last year, there was actually cheating involved and he was just like the way that I sought out and turn to God.
And I didn't go back into those old patterns of just wanting to be angry and fuss and fight and call them names and put them down. I just really worked on myself. And so he has said before, I wished I could handle things the way that you do. My thinking is he might, if I said, why does Jessica think that I'm going to say what I think you might say and you say yes or no, or okay, I think he might say something like I have been dishonest in the past.
I used to have this drug problem [00:55:00] and I but she just doesn't get it. Like I'm really trying, but she just never believes me. What'd he say? Something like that? Probably. Yeah. I even offered to let her like watch the bank account and she just didn't even want to do it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. From his perspective, it's you're strong and you handle things in a strong way.
And in one way you respects that about you, but in another way, probably resents that about you because it makes him feel weak or whatever. Yes. Okay. My, my guess is Jessica. When he said, watch the bank account and order the drug test, my thinking is that those were sincere efforts. Now, you know how I feel about you having to do that because it just ends up not being fair.
But my guess is when he said it, he meant it. But probably what happened was he's thinking, all right, I got to get these out of my system. And then the drug test came really quick. And he's thinking, I just need a couple of days to get this like all the way out. And I, my yesterday was the last day. And he's like [00:56:00] telling himself, I just need two days for my system to clear.
And then he does it one more time, and he's thinking to himself, I'm just going to hold these in the drug. And then I'm just going to put them in the mailbox or whatever, like in his mind, he's almost there. He's going to do it. It's tomorrow, we'll start tomorrow. Yes, thinking right?
And so he is giving you a lot of change talk but the problem is The action steps that he's wanting to take it's not that they're terrible It's just that all of them involve You having to do it you having to monitor the bank account you having to give them the drug test and that Is frustrating because that puts y'all back in the cat mouse game Right.
Okay. What are his positive intentions? Do you think I mean he has positive intentions probably that he's telling himself he's going to change but In general as a person in life, what are his positive intentions? I think his positive intentions Are to provide for his family. Okay, I think that's what he wants to do Okay, does he work?
He does work He didn't he's a Excellent [00:57:00] worker gives the 110 percent to his work but he just got a promotion in the last year and he has a lot of extra money And since he got that promotion, he's gotten to a lot more debt Okay, so the money's not going where he wants it to go, which because he we even sat down and talked He's like now that i've got this good job You could actually take a break and I could provide and take care of the family all by myself like you've done for years You so I know that's his intent. Yeah, no, I think you're spot on. And the thing is if he's addicted to pain pills or Kratom or anything of the he's gotten himself to a point that he can't go to work unless he uses. He wants to stop, but he also had, he just got this big promotion. He doesn't want to let any work down because he's got a promotion and he's, and it's a source of pride for him.
And so he is stuck in this thing between, I have this dependency. If I don't take these, I can't go to work. I certainly can't go up to my HR department and say, Hey, I need to go to rehab. They just gave me a promotion, and so my guess is [00:58:00] that he's stuck. He's stuck because he's trying to figure it out how he can do it with because he's going to get sick if he just quit.
So how can I do this and how can I beat this on my own? Because I know with the pride thing because i've even said I was like, look, we don't need your job You lose your job. I've always taken care of the family. That's not important to me What's important to me is you getting healthy and not overdose and that's what's important.
It's important It's back but it's important to him and It's important to him. So all you, your magic words, Jessica, are to say exactly what you just said, minus the, but I don't need you to work part. Okay. You say all the other things you just said. You say, you worked so hard for this thing.
Family, you've worked so hard for this promotion and I know you're stuck. I believe you. I know you really want to stop, but if you stop, you're going to be sick and you're trying to figure out how to get out of this, but you can't figure out how to get off this treadmill without losing everything, just say that.
And then he's going to say. And you don't even have to come up with the answer to that, how he's going to get out of that trap, but [00:59:00] just acknowledging that you see him and that you see his situation, his brain will start to figure it out and he'll say, I'm going to probably tell you more and you, and then whatever he tells you, you say that back and you're caught in a rock and a hard place.
What are you going to do? Go up and tell your boss, you need to go to rehab, lose your job, lose your promotion or something like that. Probably come up with something. Yeah. He's already come up with a couple of somethings, but they were like in, in AA, they call it a half measure.
Okay, you're trying, but you need to do something more than that, right? That's what they call a half measure, right? But you don't say that part. Okay. But you get them to come up with let's, let me try this. He might say, maybe I need to go on Suboxone and get on a taper. There's a medicine called sublocade.
You know what that is? I haven't heard of that. I've heard suboxone, but not the second one. Sublocade is suboxone, but it's a once a month injection, and people tend to have an easier time coming off a sublocade because it's so long acting, it drips out of your system slow, that you have much less withdrawal when you finally step off.
So sometimes [01:00:00] people can be on the sublocade for just a month or two months or something, and it just Okay. Because it's long lasting, it's in your system and it dissolves a teensy bit at a time, it's like the tapering is so slow and gradual that it's just not as hard and that would keep him working right and functional.
Now he has to make it when it works like anything else, he could say, I'm going to do that and then still be doing whatever, he has to, Decide that he's trying to make it work, but there are answers. But acknowledging his situation and his perspective will help him start to think about the solutions more.
If you start giving him too many solutions, he just starts thinking about why you don't get it and those won't work. I know what he needs to do in his head. You just need to clear the path for him to do it. Okay, that makes sense. All right. Let us know. I will. Thank you. Amber. You're welcome. All right. Bye.
Bye.
Thanks everybody and I'll see you next time.
