Justin Polyvagal
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[00:00:00] Have you ever had a moment or a situation in life where you knew that you should be reacting or responding differently but it was like your body took over and you didn't quite have control of your reactions in that moment like maybe you were arguing or yelling and you could even hear yourself yelling and you knew you needed to calm down but you felt like you couldn't or maybe you shut down completely and you couldn't do
anything about a situation or maybe you notice that you're just running away from a situation and you know you need to deal with it but you keep having an impulse to just get out of there or you could be like me and I definitely have a strong freeze response there are just certain things that happen where it's like I'm a deer in headlights and I can literally hear my narrative in my head telling me what I should be doing or saying but it's like I can't even move
I can't even say the right thing it's like I feel frozen and stuck if you've had experiences like that And especially if you tend to have experiences like that you're really going to like this video because we have an expert on here to talk to you [00:01:00] about polyvagal theory which is all about how the nervous system dictates how we react in certain situations especially if we've had some trauma in our past
so I want to introduce you to Justin from the podcast stuck not broken he's going to explain to us all about polyvagal theory and he's going to help us connect the dots between that and addiction and even to codependency so Justin Polyvagal theory just hearing the term makes my head want to explode because it sounds like super sciency
I don't know what I would want to call it like it sounds like it's too much can you break it down for us in like regular people terms what in the heck does that even mean it is super sciency and I think it's it there's ways to explain it that aren't overwhelming and so that's what we'll do
but I do want to acknowledge it is inherently an academic and biological thing that is really it but it applies to so many different fields that US therapists and psychiatrists and [00:02:00] doctors teachers have like scooped it up and said oh my gosh I can use this and I think in the trauma realm especially it's been very relevant and really embraced
but the basic idea is poly vial theory is It's the sci the science of human connection it's the science of how we connect to each other but also how we respond to danger and it's a mammalian thing not just humans but we'll focus on human beings but it's a mammalian thing how we how do we respond to danger but also how do we connect with each other
so political theory lays out just to keep it really simple that there's basically our bodies can be prepared for defense or for connection for safety we have specific biological neuro pathways circuits pathways that are responsible for connection but also for danger to like how we respond in connection or how we respond in danger
that's really the very bare bones basic idea is safety or danger and then your body adjusts to [00:03:00] those those contexts and that fundamentally changes how you behave how you think how you feel to get a little bit more narrow we go there's not just the safety possibility but the defense and even more narrow
in defense we can react to things biologically we can be prepared for running fighting or shutting down so flight fights or shutdown freeze and shutdown or different I think we hear the word freeze a lot so most people are pretty familiar with fight flight freeze right so it's this yeah
biological state we can get in and we move in and out of that state multiple times a day right based on what's going on yeah h how does that relate to trauma so want to I want to parse out our words a little bit here because it's really important to fine tune what we're saying and what we mean
so yeah flight fight freeze is just the common like this has something to do with trauma you see these words out there all the time and you'll see other words I'll start with f like [00:04:00] flop faint fawn I dunno if we can swear but there's an F word that there's a swear word that starts with f It's the F word
like so all these that I've seen out there that have something to do with trauma and how people respond to trauma they always start with f and they just exist out there but political theory is more focused and it's again about those biological responses that we go through so flight and fight are sympathetic responses where we mobilize
and so it's I prefer people think about it as mobilization so not just running away or fighting but just are you existing in a more mobilized state right now you and I are pretty much in stillness but I don't know about you but when I do these things I have a little bit of like anxiousness I have a little more energy in my system
sure yeah so even though I'm sitting still I still have this like mobilized energy in my system so I have a little bit of probably more flight not really but that doesn't mean I'm like getting up and running away I'm not like super anxious but I noticed I have a little more energy in my system so mobilized
And then the other one would be shut down not freeze but shut down shutdown is this like limp [00:05:00] collapse where we potentially like fullon could like pass out and play dead or death bane and in political theory it we refer to it as immobilization so there's a potential for organisms to immobilize in the face of life threat
so shutdown is different than freeze freeze is actually a mixed polyvagal state a mixed state where we have okay we have sympathetic flight fight active plus shut down immobilization so they're both active at the same time I'm follow following that makes a lot of sense yeah yeah and I'd interviewed Dr
porters and I'd asked him about this and he clarified that really what we when we say freeze we these terms get mixed up but shut down is a limp collapse freeze is a gorgeous by the way created the political theory I don't think I we had mentioned that freeze is more so shut down's lip collapse
freeze is a stiff immobilization so shut down is a limp immobilization freeze is a stiff like paralyzed like freeze frozen yeah [00:06:00] like the headlights like Exactly exactly yep yep and like this so how does this connect the trauma in a major way free shows up at know I'm not going to go into details but can show up through numerous sort of assaults and traumatic incidences
it could be something where someone's forced to immobilize or the perceive they're mobilized or they cannot mobilize like maybe they're they got in a car crash and they are stuck and they they are in pain and there's fires and but they can't get out of the car so they are forced to immobilize in that instance but their body's also prepared to run away and get out of that situation so that could be a as a very easy example of what freeze could look like but just like day to day if like I have kids that like to scare the heck out of me and so when they jump out of around the corner and they scare me which they've gotten very good at
I used to do it to them all the time but now they do it to me my body like tenses up I freeze just a little bit not like a traumatic way but that's kind of like day-to-day like these things still exist within us a potential to go up and down what's called the polyvagal ladder [00:07:00] to go up and down through these different states
Totally exists within us day-to-day even in mundane silly situations but yeah also in these situations that are more traumatic and so to take us one step further to connect it to trauma the political theory from the viewpoint of the poly vehicle theory trauma is not just like the thing that you went through
trauma's not the event it's the impact of the event you and I could be we'll go back to the car crash you and I could be in a car crash and like you walk away from it and you take a deep breath and you go oh my gosh I can't believe we just went through that and you're ready to hug someone and just be like and laugh it off maybe
Whereas I may be like really stuck in a free state and maybe it was the same incident but it affected me differently that's the basic idea I might be left in a chronic anxious maybe flight state for quite a while and have a hard time getting in cars whereas you were able to laugh it off and you're so it's same thing
fundamentally but different impact so trauma is the impact not the event oh I like that so it would be kind of like if you pictured two cars crashing [00:08:00] one might come out with a dent and one might come out like total yeah same crash okay yeah that yeah okay that's the basic I yeah but this brings us back to the first thing that we said which was this is biological
so when I say it's the impact Not the event I'm not saying like it's just how you feel or it's the behaviors that you do I'm saying that your body on a very autonomic nervous system level so on a very neurological level is frozen in a state of well is stuck in some sort of defensive state like literally can so you cannot self-regulate out of that
back into a safety scene it's not something you can help it's not something that if you're stronger this won't happen to you it's right yeah exactly it's automatic okay yeah that's I like that because we often look at these Trump survivors or addicts and we say what's wrong with you
or there's some sort of moral issue or a strength issue and [00:09:00] it's like no It's I that person went through something or is going through something and their body is prepared for defense and they just kind of got stuck there it doesn't mean that they can't be helped it doesn't mean that they can't do some self-regulation
doesn't mean that they're stuck forever but they're stuck in a state of defense and that's what trauma is sometimes with addictions and we've used this language and addictions forever but I'll talk to families and stuff and I'll say when you're in addiction you're really stuck in the primitive part of your brain
you're stuck in fight or flight you're stuck in survival mode and that's why addiction doesn't play by the normal rules and why you can't motivate somebody who has addiction the same way and that kind of thing it's like their brain state is completely different can you talk to us a little bit about that
yeah that's literally very much true so when you or when we anybody exist in a defensive state they have less [00:10:00] access to the higher functioning functions of their brain so critical thinking and the ability to empathize with others and ways of pros and cons all of these things remember things accurately
all of these higher functioning brain things are off the table like you lose access to them while you're in that defensive state it really becomes more of a brainstem like the all this polyvagal stuff is related to the vagus nerd but really the most important aspect of this is the brain stem because that's where all these decisions
these body-based decisions I'll call 'em are happening in the brainstem and in front of the brainstem the signals of safety or defense are being sent to the rest of the body but also up to the brain not just to the body but also up upwards to the rest of the brain and so if you're in defensive state you don't need as much critical thinking
you need to escape you need to fight and so your body but also your brain is optimized to find danger detect danger and take care of it or get away from it so yeah all those like wonderful [00:11:00] cognitive functions that we love they are less accessible because that person's stuck in a defensive state
so like when you see somebody who's addicted and you see 'em making all these like really bad choices and seemingly like why would you run your life why would mess up your marriage or your career your kids then a part of that answer is because they can't fully access the part of your the brain that lets you think through that kind of thing
is that what you're saying yeah their ability to think critically into wave pros and cons like they're probably seeking out especially initially once they got into substance use as a means to deal with whatever or not deal with maybe whatever they're going through actually I would say it's I think it's someone's best way of coping
like I don't advocate for drug use as a way to deal with your problems but I believe that alcohol drug use all kinds of addictions are probably that person's best attempt to deal with whatever the heck is going on inside of them or not deal with but like cope with maybe to reduce the intensity of it and that's what in poly Vig theory we call that a [00:12:00] behavioral adaptation okay so that could be a full on addiction that might be cutting for someone that might be picking at the cuticles on your on your fingers it could be hair pulling it could be being angry and yelling at your kids
it could be a whole bunch of stuff it's like you can't deal with what's inside of you okay and so then you figure out some way to not solve it but just it's just less intense or maybe there maybe when you're higher when you are drunk like maybe it does feel like this is no longer a problem for me right now at least temporarily
Like distract from it or numb it or something like that yep it could be a numbing it could be a distraction but some people say like so contrast that maybe a little bit with because you talked some also you briefly mentioned the connection state because that's a different state safety state
yeah safety state okay yeah when you're in those safety pathways once those are activated you can then connect so flight fight is mobilization shut down freeze Our immobilization [00:13:00] safety is connection and you cannot truly genuinely connect with other people unless you have access to those biological pathways
you can fake it you can it can look like you can mask that you're doing things but it won't be like a genuine I don't think connection with You can go through the motions of it right absolutely and we all like we all do that when I chit chat with my coworkers like I don't really want to I just do you know right yeah and but when I'm feeling like truly like connected I want to go up and hug people I want to smile I do things like when I smile my eyes not just me but all of us when we smile our eyes they crinkle on the sides our facial muscles go up so there's all these biological things that happen within us that cannot happen unless we're in that safety state
so what I'm just like chit-chatting and trying to get through a conversation about the weekend or whatever I don't do those things I don't have genuine smiles I don't have that like I'm not going to get closer to that person and want to hug them I'm just kind of like okay yeah all right get it
you know I want to move on but when I come home and see my kids when I visit my family [00:14:00] it's like I want to get closer to them my not just that I want to like in my mind I want this to happen but my body feels this compulsion to connect and that comes from the safety state so there's this we there's this saying that's been around for quite a while in addiction recovery
and I say it all the time too myself and the saying is connection is the cure for addiction or sometimes I say connection is the opposite of addiction and I think that really lines up perfectly with this polyvagal theory because it's talking about yeah you can't have connection when you're up here in these states or you're down here in this state
you have to be in this sort of optimal zone and when you have addiction you can't even access that optimal zone yeah to let the process happen no I think you're totally right connection I think is a and it's what we do as therapist right a big part of what we do is I'm here with you
I can make eye contact I'm not going to judge you I can I have a full range [00:15:00] of my voice I can have it's called vocal ity I can go up and down and we're not talking to flat monotone voice that indicates that I'm dangerous I'm in a da a dangerous state so it's yeah all these like connection pieces call it's called co-regulation
All these co-ed pieces are and it in a sense healing I don't like using that word but it is because when I'm totally yeah yeah when I'm able to provide those things what happens is that the other person who maybe is in a defensive state they're it's through a process called Neuroception but they're able to basically pick up on my cues of safety
Or the therapist or their their loved one their friend their pet dogs are really good at this so we the we mammals we give off these cues of safety as long as we have access to our safety state and if we do that if we do that then the other mammal the other person picks up on them and hopefully They can pick up on them and that [00:16:00] will help them to climb their political ladder into their own safety state
so yeah it's very much is healing or I don't want to say cure or anything but like healing it's very much healing it's a big piece of this having that connected those connections around you and I think with addiction tell me if I'm wrong but isn't like support group and mentorship and maybe that's too more of an aa kind of model but like That's pretty darn important
The connection needs to come from somewhere and a lot of people do get it from like AA 12 step there are other places to get it but the point is to get it right and I yeah for my listeners that you're listening to Justin you guys listening closely because he's giving you the fancy talk the clinical way of saying to you what I say to you is like you got to get your energy right
because when your energy's not right you mess up their energy that's how my people used to hear me say and you just gave 'em the science behind it that's the that's the objective kind of nerdy way of putting these things what I would encourage people to do [00:17:00] is hopefully respect that within them is that capacity to connect
it is still in there and if you're a loved one of someone who is going through addiction I would hope that you still know that person has that capacity to connect it's still in there it is probably extremely difficult to access it's not a it's not something you can will yourself to do
I don't think I haven't come across that but I do believe it's still there can you train yourself to do it can you what you can do kind of what I'm getting at is like if you can first respect that the capacity is there then then it's where does it show up because it it it is there it does show up somewhere
and I think that it can be through big things like feeling connected to a family member or a therapist or someone in a support group or something like you could you might feel maybe you don't recognize it in the moment because we're not usually very mindful of these things so I guess that's kind of what I'm asking people to do is to bring a little bit more mindfulness of when do I feel[00:18:00]
actual connection and in in the high school I work at I ask this and they're like I don't and I'm like no there there's who do you feel some level of trust with who do you feel some level of like I can just kind of I can hang out with them and not feel like I'm in danger like who in your life
Do you have and those kids will eventually be like oh there's the campus security monitor they're actually really cool I like hanging out with them or there's that one teacher I'll chit chat with them for 10 minutes after class and then they don't judge me moments of connection with your pet or with somebody in your life where you
the guards do come down and what I would invite you to do is to notice that and experience that and that's just a little bit of little bit just a little bit of mindfulness so is are there people in your life where you feel or you can notice there's less defense and maybe even full on I do feel connected and I do feel a sense of safety here and then like experience that
so respect that it is there and then look for those times where You actually do feel and it could actually be the other option here is like let's say okay finds no one in your life you [00:19:00] have nobody who is able to provide that for you you know what is it you do hopefully there's something you do in life or that you're interested in where you do feel less defense
maybe you're really into art or poetry cycling softball team I don't care what it is as long as it's not harmful to yourself or others like what do you have in life where you feel present and you feel in the moment do those things but mindfully like really experience it and I think that could be helpful by itself
and there was this phrase that I heard recently which I just grabbed onto probably more than anything else and the phrase was and it's related to polyvagal but the phrase was story follows state yeah to me that was probably the most powerful statement can you talk to us about what that means
and the idea is The thoughts on our brain not just the thoughts not just the words but the images the memories these things follow the state of our autonomic nervous system of our body right so when we are in a state of safety or [00:20:00] a state of defense that changes how we think it changes what we think about if we're in a safety state Let's do let's take the try and take the perspective again of like a family member of someone who's struggling with addiction
When that family me family member is in their own safety state their thoughts are going to be probably more empathetic and understanding and part of that might be taking responsibility for their part in this system right but part of that could be as well I think part of safety is or part of the safety thoughts is
not just taking responsibility and having empathy but also making clear decisions about this is what I'm going to do about it right so all that could be from the safety state whereas from a defensive state their thoughts might be more judgmental and why won't you change and I'm sick and tired of this and those might be valid questions and feelings but the thoughts will be far less empathetic and more judgmental and shaming
so it's each of these states have their own thoughts and the flavor of those thoughts changes based on what state that they're in [00:21:00] that that's the basic idea of story fall estate so it's kind of like if you if you've ever met somebody who's that you call that you perceive as being paranoid and they constantly feel like everybody's sketchy or everybody's after them then what you're saying is they're probably staying more regularly in a assert in a certain biological state which is yeah making them see the world that way
is that yeah am I following it okay yeah because yeah because not just our thoughts change but the way we experience and filter the world changes based on what state we're in so that person who has who's like very anxious and ruminating and thinking about the future and worrying in a negative way that person's probably stuck in like a flight state
The person who is blaming and judging and accusing they're probably stuck in a flight state or yeah and that and the person that is just like I give up in my life what's the point they're numb inside all that stuff all that would come from like a [00:22:00] shutdown a shutdown state okay yeah and so then in in my mind not only am I could be taking this a step too far so you just tell me if I am but yeah as you're talking about that in my mind not only so your physical state is going to determine your narrative and then I think those two things together because that's making your energy a certain way is going to create other people's reactions to you is that The case yeah okay yeah so the state of your thoughts and your body which all this comes from the brainstem the brainstem sending it's changing the potential of your brain and thinking and critical thinking and flavor of your thoughts but also the state of your body of being immor of a defensive state and then that gets projected out and so other people pick up on that right and like when you're around someone that is stuck in like a defensive state it feels or if you're around someone who's like in an anxious state whether it's stuck or not
It feels like it feels differently than someone who's warm and [00:23:00] empathetic and ready to connect with you it has a fundamentally feel different feel and so you pick up on those cues and now some people can tolerate that and they can be there with that person who is in a defensive state and they can provide co-regulation and compassion and kind of ride it through with them in the that's what we do as therapists a lot is I'm here with you and I can tolerate this with you and I'll be this container right but other people may not be able to do that for whatever reason
and I that's fine I don't blame 'em so when they're around that other person that is in a defensive state they'll pick up on that and they'll shift to their own defensive state as well right so it's like they'll lose access to their safety state they'll lose access to their empathy and their and so now we have this feedback loop happening Yeah
between people which is very reinforcing of your narrative yeah so if you feel like people are dangerous Absolutely and you have this defensive energy that's going to prompt other people subconsciously don't even know it to give you back that kind of energy which is then [00:24:00] reinforcing and reinforcing
yep yeah and those defensive states will probably play out based on their life history so if you're around someone who's in a defensive state if you existed in a defensive state like a flight state you'll probably go to your flight state and just like lead the situation okay I can't deal with this I'm out of here
Whereas if you expend more time in like a flight state you'll probably I would assume go to your fight state pretty quickly and be like what's wrong with you knock it off so it yeah it's you'll have two people in defensive state just cir circling each other it's so important why one person in that system makes a change
yeah toward safety yeah it's interesting to me because when I think about that when you said some people can tolerate another person's defensive state more easily immediately I started thinking about I can do that really easily in my office in the session yeah like you bring it I got it I'm going to regulate us
but if it's just me out in the world totally different it's different totally it's it's because I feel safe because I'm on my [00:25:00] home turf and I'm like I got this yeah is that what it's and then so I'm like I'm cool bring it or whatever I got this but I don't have that same capacity just out in general
it's so different I don't know about you but do you ever have people if you're like dysregulated or if you're feeling too anxious or irritated do people ever go aren't you a therapist like shouldn't you know better than this or shouldn't you do they ever you ever hear that I haven't heard that but I usually keep most of my dysregulation pretty internal to be honest
oh ok I'm pretty good at putting it in there yeah I have a 13 year old daughter that loves to throw things at me when she can not literally but like if I'm getting irritated at her choices she'll be like aren't you a therapist and it's a different context it's a and the answer is like yes but I'm not your therapist
I'm your parent that's true yeah it's going to sound it's going to sound a lot different yeah but it's different context I think our state changes based on the context that we're in not just the literal environment but in a therapeutic relationship there's someone coming to us and [00:26:00] saying I need help
And as compassionate people which I think we typically are I think we're more inclined to be like okay I got you versus at home like the dishwasher just has to get emptied let's go and we're managing a hundred things at home and in the office we're managing one's one thing right
pretty much yeah we're exactly yeah so when my daughter's like I'll do my chores later it's like no we got to go let's go so it's just fundamentally like a different context different relationship different experience different environment yeah so our capacity can change based on our own state
it can change based on our environment it can change based on how many things we're dealing with at any one given time there's so many pieces that come into play it's amazing that we ever regulate to be honest it really is it really no you're a hundred percent right I it I marvel at like if some if we can get to that place of safety and maintain it and build the strength of those pathways to be able to do it again the next day [00:27:00] it's yeah it's a pretty incredible thing I think
where can people learn more from you and find out more about polyvagal theory I for me go to justin lm ftcom I have a ton of stuff there lots of free stuff my podcast not broken but the hub of like everything I create is justin lm ftcom and then if you're if you love this political stuff I have a lot of that
Most pretty much everything I do is centered on poly vilo theory but if you are like the nerdy type and you need to get the primary sources Dr steven Porges and I think it's stephen portescom I think okay because some people might be like what does that even mean yes okay thank you
thank you that's okay so find you there and then also what is the name of your podcast because it's really good name so I want you to say it stuck not broken stuck a good name yeah yeah it's I don't believe people are broken or defective I don't think people are born with these behavioral adaptations and whatnot
I think that [00:28:00] we get stuck in our development or we get and or we get stuck in trauma based on stuff we've been through yeah stuck not broken I like that because it's just hopeful exactly yeah to me there's totally message about I'm glad that you picked up on Yay
