Why 'One-Size-Fits-All' Recovery Models Fail - And What to Do Instead
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Amber Hollingsworth: [00:00:00] In recovery, there's this idea that one size fits all as in One recovery program is going to fit for everybody and as most of us know, that's just not very effective Which is the reason why I have our guest expert witness, I like to call them here to talk to us about different personality types. And not only are we going to talk about different personality types, but we're going to talk about how that impacts recovery, how it impacts if yourself, if you're in recovery, or if you have a loved one who's struggling, maybe ways to approach certain personality types that would work. better or differently than other types to help you be more strategic in how you go about Getting your life and your family back on track Thank you so much for joining us.
We're so glad you're here. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Dr. LaHue: Sure. My name is Tom LaHue and I have a YouTube channel on the Enneagram. So that's my primary work is with personality Information [00:01:00] personality profiles. There's a lot of different personality systems out there, and all of them, I think, make a contribution. DISC, Myers Briggs, CliftonStrengths, all of these things are very useful, and the Enneagram is just one of those personality profiles. But, the difference with the Enneagram is it digs in a little bit. It's not something that you look at to just see the best. Best that you bring to the table.
It also uncovers some darker aspects of ourselves that maybe we're blind to, or we don't necessarily want to pay attention to. And so it does expose us a little bit and help us to see things about ourselves that might be uncomfortable, but very useful in growth or development or personal development.
And so that's primarily what I do is. Is the channel and then coaching, working with people and especially a lot of relationships and that kind of stuff, because once we know what your personality types, we might be able to help you have a better marriage or a better relationship, or at least understand each other [00:02:00] better and see each other's point of view and perspective a little bit better.
So that's primarily what I do, Amber.
Amber Hollingsworth: I'm really glad you mentioned about how Enneagram goes deeper because that's why we use Enneagram in our office, too, because I like the fact that it gets to underlying motives because I like to tell my clients, it's you and I could do the same thing, but for two totally different reasons.
And for the work that I do, the reasons matter. And so I like that it gets, like you're saying, in that deeper underlying part, not just the good. But also some of those maybe character defects or underlying anxieties that could be driving our behavior.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. It's one of those things that like people may not even be aware of some of the impulses and compulsions and motivations that drive their actions and thoughts and thinking and behaviors. But then once they see it, once they take an Enneagram test or they meet with an Enneagram coach, once they see it and a light is shined on it, then it's Often they have that experience of I feel like you're telling me things I already [00:03:00] know about myself, but didn't know that I knew about myself or didn't see it as potential problems until now a light shines on it.
And then, it really helps us understand more about ourselves and. Therefore, the people that we try to get along with the people that we love, it helps us to see for one thing, I always say it like this. It's nice to know you're not crazy. Sometimes when you learn more about your personality type to go, okay, so that's why I do what I do, or that's why I value what I value. I'm not crazy. Okay.
Amber Hollingsworth: I might say, it's nice to know what flavor of crazy you are. Yeah, there you go. And I love that I'm right on board with you. I love that it gives a language, especially in a relationship. It gets a language to describe where you're coming from for the other person to understand and for you to understand them.
It really, I think, can make a big difference. I love that you do relationship coaching using Enneagram. I think that's fantastic.
Dr. LaHue: For sure.
Amber Hollingsworth: So if you're watching here live or on the playback, put a little hand emoji in the comments. If you are [00:04:00] familiar with the Enneagram and let us know that way, we can make sure that we gear this conversation to meet everybody's needs. Dr. can you start just by telling us. What the types are give us a little brief description because not everybody will be familiar with it,
Dr. LaHue: When you talk to somebody like myself that's all excited about the enneagram, we talk in numbers and so that can be a little off putting or confusing because it can be uncomfortable to what you're telling me.
I'm a four. What's a four or a five, so we Basically what the Enneagram suggests is that there's nine basic personality types. There's nine perspectives on the world. And those nine different perspectives, they exist within three different groups. So essentially we have three big problems as humans.
Why is everything broken? Where does my worth and value come from? And how are we supposed to survive in this scary world? And there's three different sort of solutions to those three main problems. And if you go around the [00:05:00] dial and look at them, realize every one of these is offensive and I'm not trying to be offensive, but they all are offensive.
And that's why the Enneagram I think is unlike some of the other personality profiles, because it does offend. Your sensibilities about yourself. It also validates.
Amber Hollingsworth: It's validating and offensive at the same time.
Dr. LaHue: It does validate and, show us kind of your superpowers.
And that's awesome to know that. But it also shows you what your kryptonite is. And that could be very humbling for us. And usually you may be confused at first I might be this, or I might be that, but often it's the one that's the more painful one to you. That is probably the accurate one because that it's digging into some places, hitting the
Amber Hollingsworth: button.
It's hitting the spot.
Dr. LaHue: Somebody said to me, I'm six foot two, if somebody said you're short, I would say, I. Don't resonate with that doesn't feel offensive to me because it doesn't sound legitimate But if they said you're bald, I was like okay, you got me that one.
What am I gonna do? That's [00:06:00] so when you start to get over the target Then it probably is going to be a little more sensitive, right? And so if you go around that dial one through nine You could think of them in these terms. One type one is the perfectionist, the reformer. This is a person very focused on doing things right, has a strong sense of responsibility, wants to be good, has the sin of anger 'cause they could get frustrated when they can't meet those perfectionistic standards or other people don't seem to care.
A little bit like the dad in the family, the proverbial father figure of. Do your homework and be responsible and clean your room. You don't get dessert until you clean. Okay, the type two the giver the helper This is a person that you know comes into the world with a great capacity to love others sees themselves as a servant I'm here to help people and take care of people But they have the underlying scent of pride which is hard for twos to sometimes see but they're very comfortable in the position of Offering help to others, but sometimes [00:07:00] uncomfortable in receiving care or attention from others, and they could, they like the mom in the family let me nurture you.
Let me help you. Let me take care of you. What do you need from me? I'm here to take care of you. Don't shine the spotlight on me. The sin underneath it is pride because that sense of I don't want to need things. I want other people to help them and they have this core fear of, what if people don't really love me or care about me after all I've done for them. Okay. And then type threes, the achievers, the performers. These are very driven, motivated people that get a sense of value from accomplishing and achieving and winning the athletes. They're aspiring to be the best version of themselves, the sin underneath is deceit because sometimes threes have a hard time.
They're true selves. They could be a little focused on image management and it could be uncomfortable to see their mistakes or their failures. They have a fear of failure or a fear of not being able [00:08:00] to reach their full potential and type force right next to them. So I always think of the threes as being like the oldest child in the family.
Look at me, watch me look at what You know, pay attention to me. Did you see what I just did? Okay. Type four. Is that other child in the family? Where do I fit in? Where do I belong? They're called the romantic or the let's see the individualist. I got to do things my own way. I got to listen to my own voice.
I can't pretend to be something I'm not. And so they're very focused on how they feel and they're focused on being true to themselves. They're kinda like the other kid in the family I can't do everything my older brother can do, but maybe I'm an artist or maybe I'm creative, the underlying sin for fours is the sin of envy because they look at the world like they don't have, they've been given a hand that you can't win with and they somehow have to stay in the game, even though the cards are stacked against them. And even though they're misunderstood and minimized and diminished by others, they got to be true to themselves also called the [00:09:00] dramatist or the dramatic one.
They have a flair for the dramatic. You might say a lot of creatives artists or fours. March into the beat of their own drum, doing things their own way. Type five is called the observer or the investigator. And these are very cerebral people, trying to understand things and make sure that they stay insulated and protected from the world with strong boundaries, but they.
They very much want to know how things work and remain logical and unaffected and detached sometimes from life and from others. I think the stuffy old professor, that knows everything about ancient Rome but, doesn't realize he has spaghetti sauce on his tie. A little absent minded sometimes. So this is like when you think about the kids going into the world and they're going out to school, I always think of like the elementary kid going into this big, giant, overwhelming school and, you could feel pretty small there. And just there's so much to discover in such a [00:10:00] big world to understand and you could feel small in that world.
And so the investigator, the observer, their sin is. Greed or avarice because I don't want to share my focus of attention with you I don't really care about what you think and i'm not trying to impress you. So Why would I need a relationship with you? And so they could be a little stingy with their affection, stingy with their emotions, stingy with their kind words.
And just, they might operate like, why would you be mad at me? I literally have never spoken to you. Okay. Sixes are called the loyalists or the loyal skeptic. There's actually a lot of names for sixes. Some of them I've come up with, but the trooper, the guardian, the babysitter, the concerned citizen, the investigative reporter sixes are they're like the herd.
They want to feel safe and secure in the world. They often don't feel safe. And so they look to others for support, guidance, and assurance. And, they often provide that they're very loyal people, but they're [00:11:00] questioners. Do you really know what you're talking about? Do you really mean what you're saying?
How do I know I can trust you? Does this make sense? Okay, I'm not crazy, right? Six is they sometimes. can learn and amass a great amount of information, but then they have this obligation to doubt. I'm not sure that I, and I'm six wing, I'm a seven wing six, so I can feel a lot of this underlying anxiety.
The sin of the six is fear, and it is a fear of anything that could happen, but it's primarily a fear of having No guidance, support, or assurance. Like being alone out there in the world with no team around me can be a frightening thing, a frightening thought. Type seven, myself and Amber's type, we're called enthusiasts or the adventurer.
We love to be excited about things, whether it's the Enneagram or our YouTube channels or, anything we, if we don't have something to be excited about, we start to feel a little anxious, a little panicky. It's hard for us to sit still. We would be the impulsive [00:12:00] kids. The Robin Williams, the Jack blacks, the Jimmy Fallons.
We like to entertain. And we have a fear of being trapped or stuck or no options or pain and suffering. At the end of the day, we just want to be happy and we just want you to be happy. And we feel like that's a choice that you should make to want to move toward happiness. Why wouldn't you move towards stuff that may be, but our underlying sin or passion.
Some people don't like the word.
Amber Hollingsworth: Something happened with your mic, I think. Oh. Can you hear me? Okay, we, oh, you muted. You muted yourself. On accident. Here, let me see if I can do it for unmute. Can't unmute guests. Their mic isn't connected. I'm getting a thing that's saying your mic came disconnected. Okay. Still can't hear you. We'll give Dr. LaHue a second to figure out the microphone issue. But, and I'll just take over for just a second where he's at because he's talking about sevens. And I know about sevens because I'm a seven. And sevens are like to keep themselves distracted and busy. And when things get [00:13:00] uncomfortable, they just want to think about something. Let's see. Are we back
Dr. LaHue: now?
Amber Hollingsworth: Oh, you're back. Yay. Okay.
Dr. LaHue: Let me turn my headphones.
Amber Hollingsworth: Okay.
Dr. LaHue: I don't know what I did. Yeah. I was probably talking too much and I clicked something off.
Amber Hollingsworth: We got you. You're back. I was just saying how sevens can be very distracted. We distract ourselves from uncomfortable thoughts and feelings. Whatever's new, novel, exciting, interesting. I'll just think about that.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. It can be hard to do tedious, boring stuff. We're super motivated. And then we're not motivated so much anymore and we move on. Yeah, so seven's the underlying sin or passion is gluttony.
How am I glutton? More is always better. It's not sometimes knowing when enough is enough. If I have, a couple of guitars that I'm really interested in the one I don't have, and I want to learn about it, I want to. And then we end up amassing like Ariel, she amassed all this stuff in her cave, but then she really just wasn't happy where she was.
She wanted to be somewhere else. That's very seven like trying to be a kid for as long as we can. All right. And then type eight [00:14:00] is the strong challenger the assertive one or the asserter. And this is that young adult. Imagine we've come all the way around the circle here.
Got this 18 or 19 year old that I'm going to go out into the world and start my own family. And I don't want you to tell me what to do. I'm an adult now. I don't have to listen to you. Something needs to be done about this. And I'm probably the one that has to do it. I don't care what you do on your side of the street.
Just keep your garbage out of my yard.
Amber Hollingsworth: Not the boss of me.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. You're not the boss of me. So they tend to be like powerful, dominant people who just have a right to go out and into the world and do what they do. And they don't, sit around and think about, am I okay to do this?
Do I need to talk to a committee or something? Their sin is lust and lust. It could mean what you think it means, but often it just means Other people and their stuff exists for my use and purposes. And if they didn't defend it, that's on them. They should have stuck up for themselves.
I don't know what to tell them. It's this loyalty [00:15:00] to yourself and just expecting that everybody's like that. Isn't everybody loyal to themselves? And I have a right, if I'm cold, to get up and turn the thermostat. What do you want me to do? What am I supposed to do? It's cold inside. I got to turn up the heat.
You want me to just sit here and freeze? So you just end up with a little bit of a New York accent when you push. Don't push on me. All right, so The assertive challenger and then often like ceos that type and then Last one type nine the peacemaker So this is often a gentle person the mr Rogers, you know that doesn't want conflict that wants everybody to be heard and everybody else is very special and everybody Should be a part of this and we should all be understood And they tend to see everybody's perspectives their own.
Sometimes their sin is sloth and sometimes it could be laziness, but it's not always laziness. It could just be like, I don't know what I want, whatever you think is fine. I don't want to be a [00:16:00] problem and I'm sorry, I'll work overtime for you. I just want everybody to feel good and everybody to be okay. And I don't want people to be mad at me, and I don't really want to have to deal with problems, I just want everybody to feel loved, valued, and like they're a part of the team, because I know what it's like to not feel like I'm heard and so Nines, they just bring people together, like a band leader, they get us all playing together to have harmony, They're driven for harmony, comfort and peace and those things.
So that's the idea. There's nine basic types and you'll have your dominant type. Like I'm a seven, but I have a very strong wing six. I actually have both wings. You have both wings. But one of them will tend to be a little more dominant. And so what is the
Amber Hollingsworth: word wing mean? Cause I think some people might be like, what are you, what's he talking about?
What's a wing?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, the wing is the numbers next to your type. So if you're a two, if you're a giver helper and that resonates with you, [00:17:00] you'll have a one wing. Where you like to do things the right way and you follow the rules and guidelines and responsibility, but you also have this three wing, which is achieving, accomplishing, setting goals for yourself, pushing yourself to improve yourself. One of these wings will tend to be dominant. And so if you are a seven, you're either going to probably see yourself as a seven wings, six. a lot of that six stuff or seven wing eight. Like you, you're an adventurer, an enthusiast, but you're more challenging, more, more assertive, or you're more compliant like a six and more questioning. And so the wing refers to the type next to you that you also resonate strongly with.
Amber Hollingsworth: Yeah. I call it like, like I'm a seven with six sprinkles on top or something like that. Yeah. And for those of you just wanna visualize, how do you know what's next to you is think about a clock.
But imagine the clock doesn't have 12 numbers, it just has nine, and the [00:18:00] nine's at the top. So it goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and you could think about what numbers beside you. So if you're nine, your numbers would be one and eight. So hopefully that helps everybody to figure out. If you know what your type is, put it in the comments, put it in the chat, and put an explanation marked by it.
If you're thinking I might be this type, put that in the comments and put a question marked by it, so we'll know where our audience is.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, what's cool about this is once you know what your type is, the symbol of the enneagram, if you like, do a google search and you look up the symbol, it's just this like circle star thing, but it's not really a star.
And sometimes that makes people feel nervous. What is this? Is this some kind of like religion or something? It's really not. It's just a personality profile. The lines are showing you how numbers connect to each other. The next cool thing about the enneagram is it shows you that under stress, your type could look a little bit like this other type.
And then in health, your type could look a little bit like this other type. And so you move around. [00:19:00] You are a specific type already, whether you realize it or not, but you do look like the other types in some ways health and in stress and helps you like evaluate yourself.
I thought I was doing really good, but now that I see what I go to in stress, wow, I live there. I live in that stress point all the time.
Amber Hollingsworth: Enneagram goes pretty deep. It's like matrix level. Once you get in there, you learn your type. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Then your wings, then your stress type, then your growth type, then your levels of development.
You can go as far into it as you want to go into it. Yeah, can I back you up though? Because you said something I This was my number one question to ask you on the list Okay, the religion thing because sometimes occasionally if I don't talk about integrating a lot on the channel because not everyone's familiar with it but in our practice Like when I do our coaching I we type people so we can help them communicate with their loved ones, figure out themselves, that kind of thing.
But some people feel like it's somehow not compatible with religion. And when I talk about it, sometimes I'll get comments. [00:20:00] And I feel like maybe you can help us understand how all that fits.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. And my background is in local church work. I've done that for 30 years. If you look at my education, it's You know, Liberty University, Grace College and Seminary.
And that's what my training is in. And I still work, part time as a pastor in the local church. So I get that question sometimes too. The Enneagram is used by a lot of people. Some of the books, on the shelf are very Christian in how they're written and the authors.
And some are not at all. They mentioned religion zero. And then others are almost a little metaphysical. Like they're almost new agey sounding. And I think it's used by people from all different backgrounds, religious, non religious, and people that use it find value in it, whether they see the spiritual overtones or not.
It's definitely a spiritual tool, let's say that, because when I say spiritual, I don't mean any religion in particular. It's spiritual in that it uncovers things [00:21:00] beneath the surface, and as soon as we get beneath the surface, Where are we? We're talking about spiritual stuff. Every one of these is rooted in the dominant sin And when you think of sin, you're thinking probably in the world of religion and so I of course I look at it through a very christian perspective and that's Because that's my background.
I can't help but see it through that and it's interesting that enneagram like devolves into threes, which is very christian, you know the trinity but Essentially, I see it as a tool that shows us what life is like outside the Garden of Eden. We don't live in the Garden of Eden, and everything's broken, and our questions of worth and value, and a scary world.
And it's three different strategies for each of these three problems. But like I said, people from all kinds of religious backgrounds use it. And find value in it. And I think it's good for us to question things, it's very six like for us to question things and say, where did this come from?
And is this okay to use this? And it's [00:22:00] like when people walk into a church, they see a Christmas tree and they're like, Is that okay for us to put Christmas trees in churches? Those have pagan origins, and you're like yeah, sometimes things can be challenging to us, but I would, this is my encouragement is as you start to lean into this, Notice how it moves you.
Does it move you away from a Savior? Away from God? The idea that you're totally enlightened and you don't need any help? Or does it move you in a different direction? Wow, I've got problems and I need help and Lord Jesus, please help me. I think what people find is that direction it moves you to is not one of Pride and strength and independence, but one of vulnerability and wounds
Amber Hollingsworth: and humility
Dr. LaHue: and Oh, we all are broken.
Amber Hollingsworth: We're
Dr. LaHue: all broken in different ways. And, everybody that you live around, everybody you work with are broken people. And this, the Enneagram I think shows you what that brokenness is.
Amber Hollingsworth: Absolutely. I like to think of it. It's almost your primary defense [00:23:00] mechanism, basically your type is basically what's your, we all have defense mechanisms, right?
How we cope with stress and deal with the world and that sort of, and not deal with the world and things like that. And your type is basically your number one defense mechanism. What's your go to way of dealing with that. But there's nothing anti religious or inherently devil worshipy or nothing like that.
Okay. I just want to be clear. No. Don't know where that comes from that people think that, but I'll usually get a comment or two like that.
Dr. LaHue: I would point people to another website, Tyler Zock at the gospel for Enneagram. He's done a lot of work on this. He's also a pastor too, that, uses the Enneagram
I'll just say this. There's a video clip out there on YouTube where somebody who was a teacher of the Enneagram made a careless statement and it blew up and people have, overvalued what that one teacher said. And so that's where people get questioning. And I would say, go out there and evaluate it. Start with the gospel for Enneagram because Tyler's done a great job of helping us [00:24:00] understand the origin of the Enneagram and that it is I think very strongly Christian but could be used by Anybody regardless of your religious views. It's definitely not going to move you toward the devil at all If it does you're using it wrong
Amber Hollingsworth: Honestly a more valid complaint might be the opposite of that Some people might say that's too religious for me versus the opposite.
That's what I would think. Is it okay if I ask you some questions just related to yeah. Addiction, recovery, coaching, therapy, stuff like that. Okay. Yes. Because that's what I want us to walk away from is how do we apply this to recovery? Whether it's like addiction recovery, family recovery, whatever that, wherever that is that you're coming from. What are there certain types that are more likely to struggle with addiction than others?
Dr. LaHue: Yes. And you on your channel. You talk too, but you can't discou that we go through is def us in different ways. And Health and [00:25:00] wellness and holistic health and all that. All of that's going to play into this and you know how you were treated by people and your healthy relationships or unhealthy finances.
All those things are definitely going to factor into this. But yes, some types. are a little more prone to addictions. I hate to say it, but type seven, your type and mine are probably right. There
Amber Hollingsworth: it is. Excessiveness
Dr. LaHue: and just, we want to escape. And escape the boredom or the pain or the suffering.
And, I think Robin Williams is a type seven. And, when you look at a character like that, is he a happy person, the whole personality is wired to be happy and to have joy. And we bring that when we're doing well, we bring that happiness, but when we're not doing so well, we might.
We might give up a lot to try to chase a sense of happiness or to escape pain and suffering, and, so sevens, we could get bored easily, or if [00:26:00] we felt like we were trapped or stuck in pain, we might reach out to some substance to try to numb that.
So yeah, I would say sevens are probably going to be the most addicted type. Yeah.
Amber Hollingsworth: The thing of it is we're just prone to excessiveness in every way. Like you guys know the term addictive personality. They should just call that seven. So just to be clear any type can be addicted. I have worked with every single type any neogram type who's had an addiction but what's interesting is There's a different flair or you know in addiction recovery. We talk about what's the underlying reason, right? What's the driver of this addictive behavior and that is different Depending on a lot of factors like Dr.
Lafayette said like trauma, but also very different based on your personality type What would maybe be? Tell us about maybe a type one that has addiction.
Dr. LaHue: What would we want to know
Amber Hollingsworth: about that?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, up in the top group eight nine and one the anger types And or the gut types as they're called, they're basically dealing with that problem.
Like, why is everything broken? Like, why do relationships [00:27:00] break down? Why do people do stupid things? Why do you get sick? Okay, so I can see, those types, perhaps struggling with addictions. Because maybe wanting to suppress anger. Or wanting to suppress frustration or feeling a sense of guilt or shame that they weren't able to do things perfectly, or maybe just wanting to numb out because we're so OCD about getting things done at work and then to the point that I collapse or the point that I are just feeling disconnected.
So I could see like eights, nines, and ones, for example, those gut types are those anger types, maybe dealing with the frustrations of life. And you mentioned our defense mechanisms, every type has its own specific defense mechanism and like justification or rationalization or narcotization, literally one of them, type nine, the defense mechanism is called narcotization.
Amber Hollingsworth: Heard of that, I don't even know what that means.
Dr. LaHue: You hear the word [00:28:00] narc in there, right? Like narcitizing. It's like numbing yourself out. When I don't know what to do or I feel overwhelmed, then I might numb myself out with entertainment or, I might numb myself out with a hobby. And keep myself occupied because I don't know how to face this problem in front of me, or marketizing with drugs and alcohol. Or, anything that just allows me to check out, zone out and not deal with the problems in life that, Really might be facing me. I think heart types like twos, threes and fours, the giver, the achiever, the individualist, they might use addictions to fill an emotional void.
If they're feeling unloved or uncared for or not valued, they don't get the admiration or the validation that they need in a relationship. Or to maintain their image, like think about being hopped up on something so that you can achieve all of those goals. And stay ahead of the curb. Or maybe numbing [00:29:00] feelings of inadequacy or that shame, that sense of worth and shame, the five, six, and sevens, the head types.
I could see perhaps dealing with anxiety. It's a scary world and there's a lot of stuff that has to happen and what are we going to do and, just something to calm that and to try to help us get out of that panic state or,
Amber Hollingsworth: oh, we lost you again. It doesn't say you're muted but we lost you.
Don't know what happened. Wait, now it's saying you're muted again. There we go. Okay. That's okay. So doctor, he was saying about, you were saying about nines, right?
Dr. LaHue: There. Yeah. The fear types. The five Oh yeah, sorry. They might use something to calm the overthinking,
Amber Hollingsworth: and healthy stuff.
Overthinking. That's a good word. Yeah.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, the overthinking, the spiraling, the anxious thoughts, to help us detach, maybe a little bit there's healthy things, right? Ashwagandha and that kind of stuff that might help us calm down. But then there's unhealthy things that could be abused, that could calm the anxiety, but [00:30:00] create more problems.
Actually, they never fix any problems, right? They always create more problems.
Amber Hollingsworth: Exactly. Are there certain types that are more likely to stay in denial longer or have a harder time acknowledging an addiction,
Dr. LaHue: yes type eight the the challenger the strong tough new york guy, right?
The defense mechanism is denial. That's the whole defense mechanism It was like that's never gonna happen to me. That's not gonna happen to me You know, they can watch a crime show where the lady, you know Is going down the alley and then muggers jump out and get them and a six would think oh my gosh That could happen to me.
I need to carry pepper spray, right? But the eight would see that be like that's never gonna happen to me. It's not gonna happen to me. And so AIDS for example, you know a lot of types, but I would say aids They might have a hard time because they're so independent. They're so self reliant and whatever's going on here,
I'll figure it out. I'll look it up. I'll do some research. I'm not a joiner that's going to join some group. I don't need that in my life.
Amber Hollingsworth: Independent. I got this. I'm [00:31:00] strong.
Dr. LaHue: And I can't see myself as weak, independent, or here's the key word for AIDS, vulnerable.
Amber Hollingsworth: The reality is, would a 3 kind of be in that category about not liking the vulnerable or admitting a weakness or something like that?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah 3s could get caught up in like that image management.
Amber Hollingsworth: And
Dr. LaHue: how is this going to reflect on my image? What will people think of me? And eights are less likely to care about that.
Amber Hollingsworth: They might know it, but they might hide it longer. So you're saying.
Dr. LaHue: Sin is deceit.
Amber Hollingsworth: Okay, so an eight might literally be for real in denial.
They really don't see it happening. And a three might see it happening, but they're never gonna, uh, that might go against their brand. Unless their brand is being like the party King or El Chapo. And then it's different, which could be, but I like that. So they probably know it, but they're not going to admit it.
That's a different kind of denial. Like I deny it to you versus I deny it to myself. Interesting.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. Okay. I can see that as being very possible. Yeah. I always say eights are the lions and threes are the guys that wear shirts that say I'm a lion.
I told you it's [00:32:00] offensive.
Amber Hollingsworth: Are there certain types that are more likely or less likely to get help when they're having addiction or any problem?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, twos, for example, they are the helpers. So where do they go when they need help? They're here to help everybody else. And, people wired like that, the sin of pride, it can be very hard for you to see yourself as a person with needs as well. that it's okay for me to need help. I'm not being selfish. If I need help, if I'm working on myself, that could feel selfish to a type two to the giver helper. So I think there, yeah, there's some types maybe because they're very self reliant or because they feel a sense of shame of needing help from others. That there may be many reasons why People would refuse the help.
Amber Hollingsworth: Okay.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah,
Amber Hollingsworth: I like that you brought up type 2. I was trying to think about experiences I've had with type 2s. Usually if I have a type 2 that's struggling with an [00:33:00] addiction it's they have this feeling of they give Yes, and then it's like this is my one thing y'all back.
Yes honestly, that's what they're thinking inside. Wait, you know what? I did all this for everybody. It's my glass of wine. Y'all better leave me alone. ~Can ~
Dr. LaHue: ~I tell you, can I tell you the word? ~Can I tell you the word for that?
Amber Hollingsworth: Yes. Let's have it.
Dr. LaHue: Resentment. That's the word.
Amber Hollingsworth: That's the word I was thinking.
That's it. Resentment. Cause they overgive. Right. That's spot on. Yeah.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. It's the After all I've done for you,
Amber Hollingsworth: right? And they're really mad when other people are like wanting to take their one thing. This is my one thing for me, right? And I guess I get upset about that.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. They have what I call them. A lot of us have this nice person disorder because we're nice and we're kind and we take care of people and we're thoughtful. Then you can see where the anger. that we have might be a little more passive and leak out in different ways. And addictions may be one of the ways that leaks out.
Amber Hollingsworth: Absolutely. Okay. Are there certain types that would be more [00:34:00] likely or less likely to really take to things like alcoholics anonymous or self help groups or like community joiners? Are there certain types more likely and less likely to do that?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, I can see fours. Okay. Resisting or joining.
I can see the individualist because, for example, fours, the speaking style, every type has its own speaking style. Sevens are storytellers. Okay. But fours, the speaking style is lamenting. And I can see, you have an audience of people who are going to listen to you talk about how life is unfair for you and how misunderstood you are.
And I can see them maybe being drawn to that. I could see nines, Going to that because look, honey, I'm working on myself because I go to the group, not really working on themselves. But going to the group can give the. Visual to everybody that I really am invested in this. I'm not really invested in this.
They have a sort of a steward. Easier, right? Like I always [00:35:00] say nines will go to therapy. If you're pushing them, they'll go to the group. But I actually found this. I don't know what the research says. I don't know what Dr. Lee says. We're about to find out, but I think mine are the hardest in recovery because they come and they're easy to talk to.
Amber Hollingsworth: They're like, yeah, you're so right Amber. Oh my you're right. I need to do that. But then they don't move. They don't action. So I always say, yeah, they're great to talk to in therapy. But hard to get to pick us out of the fence. And with addiction recovery, you gotta pick us out of the fence.
Like you gotta be over here. Yeah.
Dr. LaHue: No, you're dead on. I would say a lot of nines are wired like therapists themselves. And so think of it like being able, like a palm tree, they can move with people and they can agree with people and they can back up with people, but the roots never really moved.
Amber Hollingsworth: So if they're with me, they might be like, yeah, I totally agree with you. And then they could leave, maybe go. Be at the bar if they drinking, but, and they're like, oh, yeah, I totally agree with you. And then the next person. So it may feel like, let's say [00:36:00] you have a loved one who's a nine, you're trying to help them.
It may feel like they're being compliant or going along or getting it when actually they're not. Yeah. Whereas let's say an eight, for example, it feels like they give you a really hard time upfront. But once they buy in, then once they're locked on and once they say they're doing it, they're doing it.
That's it. So yeah, nines are easy up front harder in the long run. I think eights are hard up front but stick You know, they have will like they are willful and they will stick either direction
Dr. LaHue: yeah, you go to a nine when you want to be understood you go to an eight when you need your butt kicked
Amber Hollingsworth: or protection
Dr. LaHue: yeah, when you're ready to quit making excuses When you're ready to really change, you would go to an eight because they're ready to help you.
If you really want to change, but if you want to talk about this and you want to just, think about it and you want to tell me all your limitations, here's the way an eight would say it. If you want to fight for your limitations, I'll just let you keep those. When you're ready to actually [00:37:00] change that, I'm here to help you change. And many of us, we like our limitations. It justifies. And then we were seen as victims. And I think sixes would be others that might really join a group because they long for that community. They long for, they know it's a scary world. So what do you want? You want a community around you to support you, to give you help, to give you guidance, and to feel like you're a part of a team so I can see where sixes might naturally join that group for that sense of we're in this together, I'm not alone. I've got help.
Amber Hollingsworth: They long for community, but what about a five?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, the five or the nine is probably leading the group. The group discussion fives are typically not joiners. They're all withdrawn type. I don't see myself as needing to be a part of this and
Amber Hollingsworth: mm-hmm
Dr. LaHue: and very boundary oriented people.
Amber Hollingsworth: Private. Very private. .
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. And you're trying to get through this [00:38:00] boundary. . I don't want to need you. I don't want to, and they don't like to talk about
Amber Hollingsworth: A lot of times I don't recognize their feelings. And so I like to say when I see a five in an individual coaching or something, it's like at least three or four weeks of them watching me, watching them, watching me, watching them, it's like there is their size in me.
They're not going to give much at all. Till they, they're figuring me out.
Dr. LaHue: And just sitting there in a conversation with you as a stressor
Amber Hollingsworth: for them. Because I'm like looking at you like. Hardcore, there's no one else, even like all the tension,
Dr. LaHue: right? Yeah. And so if you say, how are things going today? How is things going at work? It's fine. And just being okay with that awkward silence. I'm not okay with that. Seven week, six. I don't like the awkward. I want to fill that space with something and fives.
Amber Hollingsworth: Yeah. I have about a million more questions.
We could do a whole channel just on enneagram and recovery. But since we are live, I feel like we should let some of our. Viewers you guys showed up with us live and we want to hear what you have to say and what questions you have So we're going to [00:39:00] be selecting some questions comments concerns I will tell you i've linked dr Lee hughes channel in the description along with other resources.
He's got great videos where he talks about each type I was watching a video of yours yesterday. Were talking about You The attractiveness of each type and you were saying how in Indiana Jones the girls are just swinging over him and he's just standing up there lecturing about boring things or whatever. I love that, right? What's attractive about each type? How to get along with each type. You have a whole series on that, which is super good.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, that's, and that's the direction of my operating system is don't you want to, it's very Tony Robbins ish don't you want to live the best life possible?
Don't you want to get along with people? Don't you want to have happiness? And it's showing my hand, my values, don't you want to live your best life? And understanding what's going on in the mind of your partner or your spouse or your kids, understanding their world, let me just do one thing. Okay. For example, if you have a four in your life, like you have a [00:40:00] kid that's a four or a husband that's a four, they could be very volatile. They're called the dramatist, the individualist, right? So they could be very dramatic. They often get a message in life that they're misunderstood or that they're minimized and diminished in some way.
Just this one thing. If you have a four in your life. When they come home and tell you about some negative interaction or how they were mistreated or misunderstood or how something didn't go right for them, your tendency as a loving parent might be tell me what happened and I'll show you what you did wrong.
Let me correct this for you. But often what fours want is they don't want you to correct their mistake. They want you to say to them something like this Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I can't imagine what it must feel like to have to go through that.
I'm really sorry that they said that to you. And if you just shift in that, remember there are worth and value types. So they're often seeking validation. And when you give them just a little bit [00:41:00] of validation and admiration, appreciation, you might see the nature of your relationship change because For once they now feel more understood and more valued and not criticized.
My problems are so simple. You can just fix them with your dad wisdom. That's.
Amber Hollingsworth: Yeah, they don't necessarily want to be cheered up or be told it's not that bad
Dr. LaHue: parents that love you. You should focus on the positive
Amber Hollingsworth: in africa.
Whatever.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah right And so those kinds of nuances can really help us get along better
Amber Hollingsworth: Will you pop us some questions up there? Oh, and one question from our counselor is where are you from? She had a guest and so we're just gonna find out
Dr. LaHue: daytona beach florida
Amber Hollingsworth: Kim, you are big time wrong.
She says her five Spidey senses could Spidey sense you out. We're going to have to sell her. She's gonna have to turn up the volume on her five. Okay. Wendy's got a question. Can you be a multiple?
Dr. LaHue: No. Yes and no. No, you are one type primarily. Okay. But there's some ideas that go around like tri types. You might investigate that [00:42:00] a little bit, but basically it's like your dominant type from each of the three different groups. For example, my type is 7, wing 6. My tritype is 7, 1, 2. So I'm very right? That's my first, but I'm also very responsible and want to do the right thing like a 1. And then I'm a lot like
and then I want to give and help and encourage and all that. And so in some ways you might see several different aspects. People always ask what tests should you take? Tests can be valuable. The problem is sometimes we answer on tests a little differently than, if I was to take a test, we
Amber Hollingsworth: just this is the right answer or this is what it should be.
And sometimes that's not very insightful, but even our own selves.
Dr. LaHue: Right? Yeah, my wife would look over my shoulder and say, No, you are not. But truity is a very used test. The R H E T I from the Enneagram Institute is very popular. I like truity because I like the graphic gives you at the end, where you can see how you score in [00:43:00] all the types. And that's a good way to figure it out. If you're still stuck, chances already might be a nine or maybe a six because they often have the most trouble figuring out their types for whatever reasons. But talking to somebody like me, we can usually figure this out. Sometimes as the person begins talking, I'll know Oh yeah, I can tell this person just the way they talk.
It gets crazy after a while, but tests can be very good. But no you're one type primarily.
Amber Hollingsworth: Okay. Yeah. Good question. Your base is one type, but you have flavors of other things depending on are you in stress? Are you in growth?
Dr. LaHue: Yes. Yeah. And there's another aspect called your subtypes.
Amber Hollingsworth: Complicated this gets everybody? I'm telling you, it gets matrixy. It goes deep. Alright, we have another question. It says, I'm going to have to leave at 1. 30, so I may not hear the answer. I think it will be on the recording. Yes, it will. Question. How does birth order affect Enneagram type and vice versa?
Dr. LaHue: Short answer is it doesn't. Birth order is interesting and it is amazingly accurate sometimes. [00:44:00] It's one of those things that you're just like, wow. But. As far as your Enneagram type, generally what you're going to find from the writers on the Enneagram is nobody knows, are you born this way?
Or do your parents make you into this? It's generally agreed that, you're probably born this way. There's no way I can go back into my infancy and tell when I became a seven. But having five kids of our own and raising five kids and now five grandkids, it was obvious from the start that these kids are wired.
in their own unique way. There's a lot of similarities, but they're definitely wired. They have a temperament,
Amber Hollingsworth: right? They have a position.
Dr. LaHue: And so I don't want to discount birth order because I think it is interestingly accurate at times, but there's no guarantee that if you have your first child is going to be a one, then your second one is definitely going to be, a six or, right now you just. You don't know.
Amber Hollingsworth: Yeah. Earlier, you mentioned like you're the firstborn but what we're talking about is more the stereotype of the firstborn
Dr. LaHue: like clinically.
Amber Hollingsworth: Yeah.
Dr. LaHue: Exactly. [00:45:00] Yep.
Amber Hollingsworth: Right in recovery. You discussed the need to go back before the addiction to figure out the personality type However, I feel that they become different people over time.
How do we figure them out? Okay, so if you have an addicted person in your life, they're not themselves how do you figure out what personality and I have time with this too? Because when I first meet people in their active, I think they're one thing once they're clean and sober. I'm like, okay Dude, I had that all wrong. You're this, you're really this one. Wow. That's, so this is a great question.
Dr. LaHue: There's a good chance you won't get to the underlying motivation if you don't have the type, correct. If I think you're a one and your underlying motivation is that you don't want to be bad, corrupt or wrong, and you're actually a six. And your underlying motivation is a fear of blame or a fear of how people might turn against you Then my approach with working with you could be very different depending on your personality type So obviously there's probably some general things that would help anybody in any problem But if I knew your [00:46:00] personality type it would help me Further get over the radar specifically and I see this in coaching like for example You Okay, here's a classic example. I have an appointment with a 9, and they start talking to me, and they don't sound like a 9 at all, they sound like a 6. The line from 9 under stress is a 6. So this 9, who would be generally a peaceful, easy going person, is wired up and anxious and trying to comply with everybody, and I don't know what I should do.
And for 25 minutes, they talk without taking a breath. And I'm just sitting here thinking the whole time, and Nine under stress. You could think that this person's a six because of the way they're interacting. But I know that they're actually a nine. And sometimes you just have to remind people like, come back to your nine self, come back to yourself.
You're under stress right now and that's fine. It's understandable. The levels of health that people might be on, the more you learn about the Enneagram, the more you work with it, the more you'll be able to see. That this person [00:47:00] is under stress like a seven could look like a one frustrated, irritated, cranky, disappointed, but I'm not a one.
I'm just in the outhouse right now and need a little bit of space and understanding.
Amber Hollingsworth: Yeah. Okay. All right. Don says, can someone start off as one number, like a number four, and then later become another number, like a number eight, for example? How likely are they to change? What about from trauma?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. No, whatever type you were born as, or, you've always been all your life. And you can't change it. You can't like I want to be a three instead, or I want to be a fun seven or a nice two, you don't change your type. And it doesn't change over time. But like I said, as you move through life, you might see some different aspects of how you deal with these underlying motivations.
Very, sometimes healthier in life and sometimes less healthy. And you will see yourself maybe moving around some of these types, but [00:48:00] you're not changing your core type,
Amber Hollingsworth: The core fear, the core motivating factor is the same. You may behave differently, but the why is usually. The same. Yes. All right. I have my own selfish personal question. Sure. I thought I was a three for long, long time. Then I was reading something about in your work life or leadership, some book, I can't remember. They talked about the social seven and then the light bulbs went off.
I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm such seven, like solidly felt it. But no one believes me at work. They go along, whatever, but they secretly roll their eyes and they don't think I'm seven. Can you talk about counter type?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, because that's what the social type, so there's three subtypes for every type.
Again like she said, there's layers, right? And you don't have to learn all this at once. Don't feel overwhelmed.
Amber Hollingsworth: I really, that's probably overwhelming question, but this is my own personal question.
Dr. LaHue: But. Long story short is of the three types of each type, so there's three different ones, three different twos, three different threes, one of these is going to be what's called a counter [00:49:00] type and often you'll hear about the counter phobic six or the counter six.
This is a six, the sin is fear, but they lean into the fear like a daredevil. I'm not going to let you seem aggressive.
Amber Hollingsworth: They seem eight ish, right?
Dr. LaHue: Like an eight, right? But they're leaning toward the fear. Fear is still controlling their lives but they are backwards approaching it.
Like I'm going toward it. Like Billy, the kid, I'm not going to be scared of this. Knock that chip off my shoulders. Like why are you starting fights?
Amber Hollingsworth: So
Dr. LaHue: every type there's a counter type. And sometimes it actually seems to be a great advantage. Like when you can calm down the eight a little bit or calm down the seven a little bit, But then other types it's just interesting like a two that doesn't want to help.
What's that? Or a one that doesn't want to be good. What's that? and so it is a little bit interesting how these Flavor a type and make you look very different because
Amber Hollingsworth: you like the counter type is like you have this core drive but you fight against it.
Dr. LaHue: Yeah, but you're driving
Amber Hollingsworth: you because you're fighting it all the time, right? Yeah.
Dr. LaHue: [00:50:00] Yes, you're a little bit in conflict with yourself. This is the eight that knows very clearly what they're not saying out loud because they don't want to disrupt their group, right? This is a seven who's very much still a seven. But limiting themselves and saying, I'm not going to try every item on the menu.
I'm not going to buy everything that I want. I'm going to tell myself no, and sacrifice my own personal desires for the good of my group. And yeah.
Amber Hollingsworth: So now that we've thoroughly confused everyone on the planet, everyone is saying, how do you find your type? Where do you get it? Truity, I've put the link to Truity down there.
That's a multiple choice test you can take. Like Dr. LeHue said, if you take it, I want you to be completely honest with yourself. I don't want you to judge any answer or think anything is better than just, Tell it like it really is, look at deep inside and that'll give you a better more accurate result And there are a bazillion websites.
I like enneagram institute. com. Do you have a website you would recommend?
Dr. LaHue: Yeah. Okay. That one's great.
Amber Hollingsworth: There are books What's a good starter [00:51:00] book because there's a bazillion books. Some of them are super advanced. Some of them are starter Love this one. Tell us about this one.
Yes.
Dr. LaHue: The enneagram made easy literally has cartoon pictures in it, right? So, this is a great place to start. That just gives you very simple explanations of each time. This is where my family started. And when we looked at it, it was very obvious to five out of seven of us.
We knew immediately when we looked at. description, but then the nine had a hard time because she merged with mom. So she thought she was a two, and so this is a great place to start. I've got a video on my YouTube channel called the Enneagram made easy or something like that. Start here.
Wait, that's the title of this book. The Enneagram new to the Enneagram start here. And so it just has lots of pictures of celebrities, that you can relate to. And so That's a great overview. But yeah, a book like this is a great place to start. The Enneagram Made Easy by Renee Barron and Elizabeth Wagle.
Amber Hollingsworth: Yeah. All right. Perfect. Thank you everybody who showed up live. This is fun. I could go on and on, [00:52:00] but I promised to let Dr. LeHugh off the hook in an hour, so we're gonna have to end it. And thank you to everyone who watched on the playback. And you guys go over and check out his channel. I've seen lots of Enneagram channels and Dr.
LeHugh's is my favorite. So far gracias. Thank you for this one. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you. Bye everybody
