AI Edits from Transforming Pain into Power_ Healing Betrayal Trauma
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[00:00:00] You've probably heard the saying before that time heals all wounds. Well, I'm here to tell you it doesn't heal this wound, and by this wound, I mean a betrayal, trauma wound. We actually are so lucky today because we have a expert witnessed, as I like to call my guest, ~uh, ~Deb, Dr. Debbie Silber, and she is a betrayal trauma expert.
She's been on TED Talk, she has her own podcast. She's come up with her own proven methodology for treating betrayal trauma. She trains other people to do it. I mean, she is a real life expert. So get your questions ready. Thank you for coming on here, Debbie. Aw, thank you so much. Looking forward to our conversation.
I think most of our audiences heard this term before and probably know the symptoms, but just in case they haven't. It would be great if you would just sort of give us an overview, ~plus some of the people watching are gonna be people in the camp that may feel like I have that and the other people may be watching that are thinking My person has that.~
So either side. ~Yeah. ~What is it, how would you know if you had it? ~You know, first of all, ~I define betrayal as the [00:01:00] breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule. And every relationship has them. ~And the way it works is ~the more we trust, the more we depend on the person, the deeper the betrayal. So for example, a child who's totally dependent on their parent, and the parent does something awful that's gonna have a different level of impact than let's say your best friend sharing your secret.
Your coworker taking credit for your idea. Still betrayals, different level of cleanup. ~Right. But the, well, first of all, ~I'm in business 34 years, health mindset, personal development. You don't study something like betrayal unless you have to, ~so it's not. From the study of it, I get it.~
And, ~uh, ~it was first a betrayal from my family, and then I thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. It happened again a few years later. This time it was my husband there that was a deal breaker, got 'em out of the house. I couldn't find a book, a program, a course, usually I kind learned my way through things.
But I had four kids, six dogs, a business, and I had to get it together. So the only way I thought I could do it was enrolling in a PhD program, not what everybody may do once they've been betrayed. But this was so big, I needed to study it. ~So big. That is big because I like to, when I'm dealing with something, I learn, I read all the books, but PhD, that's, that's a step further than I've taken.~
So Impressive. [00:02:00] Yeah, there wasn't anything on it. ~So, uh, ~so I studied betrayal, really just to help myself heal and to help my clients. And it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal, and that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health, my family, my work, my life. And you're gonna tell us about those discoveries today?
Yeah. Get the goods. Yeah. Before I, do you know, to answer your question, you said, how do you know if you're still struggling? I can tell you we see it, ~uh, ~within the PBT Institute. We see it in work, in health, in relationships. For example, in relationships, I'll see an unhealed betrayal, and this is, it could have happened decades ago.
I'll see it in one of two ways. The first way, repeat, betrayals. The face change, but it's the same thing. You keep going from partner to partner friend to friend boss, to boss. And you say, what the heck is it? Me? Yes. It is not in that it's your fault in that it's, there's an opportunity here.
There's a, a huge lesson waiting to be learned. ~You are a lovable, worthy, and deserve. ~You need better boundaries in place, whatever that lesson [00:03:00] is, until, and unless you get that, you're gonna have opportunities in the form of people to teach. The universe is gonna keep giving you opportunities until you figure it out.
Exactly. Yes. So true. The second way I'm gonna see it in relationships is the big wall goes up and you know, we're like nope. Been there, done that. We're not taking the risk of letting anybody in because that hurts so badly that we're not gonna risk that level of vulnerability again. We think that's coming from a place of strength.
It's not. It's coming from fear ~That's un heal. ~Like that hard spiky shell, like no one's getting close to me. Exactly. Okay. And actually 60 we've had, ~uh, ~and I'll share the post betrayal syndrome stats and stuff, but you know, imagine over a hundred thousand people and 67% of them prevent people from getting close because they're afraid of being hurt again.
~So a lot of people do that. Wow. Okay. ~Oh yeah, we'll see it ~in ~in health you could go to the most well-meaning doctor, coach, or healer therapist to manage a stress [00:04:00] related symptom illness, condition disease at the root of it isn't unhealed betrayal. And we see it at work. People want that razor promotion, but their confidence was shattered.
So they're afraid to ask, or the person they trusted the most proved untrustworthy, how do they trust the boss, the coworker, the partner? It shows up ~everywhere. ~Everywhere. It impacts every aspect of life. ~Yeah. Yeah. ~You're dragging that ~in ~into every conversation you have, every exchange, you have all of it until it's healed and ~you're, you're, ~you're subconsciously bringing it in too.
Your energy, your everything. Oh, yeah. It's not, it's not like you're directly talking about it all the time. It's more just it's following you around like a ghost. It is because it's such a shock to the body, to the mind, to the heart. And it's not the kind of thing that we may have the best of intentions.
~Well, I'll leave it at the door before I walk into, you know, work, whatever. ~But we can't. We absolutely can't. And it, it, and we see it. We see it in the conversations that we have and who we're willing to trust and not trust what we say yes or no to. ~Uh, ~and it's all because it's unhealed. The good news is you could [00:05:00] heal from all of it, which was the third discovery.
But I'd love to get to all of 'em if you wanna hear about them. Yeah. First, can we hear about the stages of it? Because I think that's where people are gonna recognize it's either, oh yeah, that's me. You know, they're gonna not just recognize it, but where they're at in the process. Sure. That was actually the third discovery.
~Uh, ~really? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. ~Because, and just briefly, and then I'll get to the stages. ~The first discovery was that betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a very different way to heal. Most people treat it like it's just a, a regular, a different type of trauma. Not to minimize any of them, they all stink, but betrayal, shatters the self.
Like when you lose someone you love, right? You grieve, you're sad. You're more than the lost. Life will never be the same. You don't question the relationship. You don't question your ability to trust, you don't question your sanity. With betrayal, you do. It's, you question everything about yourself.
~It's your self loss. Yes. Mm-hmm. ~Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust, they're shattered. So the invitation with betrayal is not only to rebuild your life, which you need to do, [00:06:00] if you lose someone you love, you have a disease, whatever, you also have to rebuild the self. Mm-hmm. So it's a different trauma that needs a different way to heal.
Most people don't realize that. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense. And I can tell you that ~it's, ~it's persistent. ~It the, you know, that, um, ~our audience is primarily here about addiction. ~Mm-hmm. ~And we have, the majority of our audience is family members. ~Yeah. ~Partners, spouses, parents of someone who has.
Addiction and they for sure show these symptoms. ~And it's, ~it's honestly these particular symptoms, it's the number one thing that I see hold families back and keep them stuck more than anything else. ~It's these symptoms. Yeah. And ~I can tell you, ~we, ~there are so many people who come into work with us, with addictions.
Those are very often the betrayers. Yeah. You know, so ~we, ~we see that all the time. Do you want me to get to the second discovery? Yeah. ~And ~this way you'll see the symptoms. ~Yeah. ~Okay. ~Yeah. But, ~but you're so right. Those 'cause people are choosing these addictive behaviors because ~they're not, you know, ~they're not feeling Right.
Something's unsettled, ~you know, there, there's, ~they came from trauma. They [00:07:00] never, is it an excuse? Or a pass to betray, but we see it all the time anyway. The second discovery was there's actually a collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional. So common to betrayal. It's now known as post betrayal syndrome.
So, like I said, ~we've have, ~we've had over a hundred thousand people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz to see to what extent they're struggling. And you said it in your opening ~time, ~you know, we think we've been taught, time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true.
Can time make it worse if, ~if you is ~left untreated, will it get worse? ~Will it happen time? ~Time keeps you stuck ~in ~When I go through the five stages, it keeps you stuck in ~the, ~the place most people get stuck. ~Okay. ~So ~you just, ~you just plateau. You just don't move forward. ~Okay. Yeah. Yeah. ~And like we have ~a, there's ~a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share?
When people write things like, my betrayal happened 35 years ago, I'll never trust again. My betrayal happened 40 years ago. I can feel the hate. Mm-hmm. My betrayal happened 15 years ago. Feels like it happened yesterday. So we know we can't count on time. We can't even [00:08:00] count on a new relationship to heal it.
Healing is deliberate and attentional, like for example. And I still wanna get to those stats. Let's say 45% of everyone betrayed has a digestive issue of some kind. We had a woman in our program in her mid eighties. She had a 70 plus year digestive issue from a family betrayal. ~They, she was adopted.~
They didn't tell her. It was like one of those 70 plus years a digestive issue. Two weeks into healing the real issue, which was the betrayal. She healed from a 70 plus year digestive issue. ~Dude, was she pissed off like 70 years after dealt? I kind of upset for her. ~Well, and, but what's interesting is that's also what happens when people realize staying stuck is a choice.
And when they realize, when I share the five stages, oh my gosh, they've been in this one stage for years and they're angry. And I try to reframe it and I said, but think about it. If you didn't know this right now. You could be in that stage for another 10, 20 years. So that's true. You know? Right. If today's the day, then, then that's one day closer than another.
~If you didn't know this. That's right. Today's a good day to learn it. That's right. Right. What's a good day like today? ~So you want me to share the symptoms of post betrayal [00:09:00] syndrome? Some of the stats? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Let's have it. All right. So people think it's due to stress, it's due to aging. No, it's not.
This is due to your unhealed betrayal. So now imagine, and as much as you're gonna hear these, these symptoms, hear these numbers ready, 78% constantly revisit their experience, 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant. That's just exhausting. 94% deal with painful triggers. ~And if you've ever had a trigger.~
They're, they take you right down. These are the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy. 68% are struggling with their sleep. ~45, I'm sorry, ~47% deal with weight changes in the beginning. They can't hold food down later on. They could be emotionally eating, putting on a lot of weight because they're eating, stress eating.
~I mentioned about the digestive issues. ~Mentally, 78% are overwhelmed. 68% can't focus. 62% can't concentrate. So imagine you can't concentrate. You have a gut issue, you're exhausted. You still have to raise your [00:10:00] kids. You still have to go to work, right? Yeah. It's not because your physical alarm bells. All your systems are going off.
It's like ~if you, ~if you have a house alarm and you've ever heard that thing go off, it's like, oh my God. You can't even think when it's going off. But it's like that in your body. ~24 7, ~24 7 and those ones. So of course you're breaking down physically, mentally, all the thing, and we're just trying to like power through it, right?
Mm-hmm. ~And that's not even emotionally, emotionally. ~88% experience, extreme sadness, 83% are very angry, and you're bouncing back and forth between those two all day long. I'll just read a few more. 79% are stress. This one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. Wow. Think about what that's gonna do in every interaction and conversation you have.
Well, connection is a human need. Not just a want, but a need. And you get sick without it. Like, it's like a vitamin deficiency, ~but we're, you know, yeah. ~You have to have that. ~You're so, mm-hmm. ~You're so right. And now if the majority of people can't trust, we're holding ourselves back from that vitamin, right?
I told you 67% prevent [00:11:00] themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being heard again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% wanna move forward, but they don't know how. What's even more staggering about those numbers? First of all, you didn't hear me say 20%, 30%. They're super high.
~They're also not necessarily a representative of a recent betrayal. ~These numbers could be from the parent who did something awful. It could be from the partner who broke your heart in high school. Mm-hmm. So that person may not know care member, they may not even be alive. And here we are decades later, like that woman I shared mm-hmm.
Because of something. Left unhealed. The good news is you could heal from all of it. And that's the third discovery. That's the five stages. That's the good one. All right. Wanna hear about that? Yes, for sure. Okay. So I mean, it's what I certify our coaches in. It's all we do within the PBT Institute. I'm gonna give you a boil down version right here.
So stage one, this is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing. We're so good at that, [00:12:00] right? And kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being, if a table only has two legs, table's gonna topple over.
~Right? And that's us. ~Stage two, shock trauma, D-Day, discovery day. Everybody remembers their D-Day. ~Mm-hmm. ~This is the scariest of all of the stages, and it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview. ~So right here. ~We've ignited the stress response. We're now headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease.
The mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. We just can't understand what we just learned. ~Mm-hmm. This makes no sense. ~We've just had this psychological earthquake, you know, where our world is compartmentalized into two camps before it happened and after it happened. ~Yeah. ~And our worldview is shattered.
Our worldview is our mental model. Trust this person, don't go there. These are the rules. And in one earth shattering moment. Every rule we've been holding on to is no longer the bottom has bottomed out on us, and the new bottom hasn't been formed yet. It's terrifying. ~Yes. ~[00:13:00] I mean, you're just spiraling.
You're just bawling. Exactly. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or any one in order to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage three Survival instincts emerge. ~Mm-hmm. ~This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get outta my way, how do I survive this?
Who can I trust? Here's the trap though. Stage three by far, hands down, is the most commonplace. We get stuck. Here's why. Once you are gonna recognize so many people in this stage right here, when I say it, once we realize. Once we've figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from.
We think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We don't know. There's a stage four or stage five transformation doesn't even begin until stage four, but because we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We plant roots here. We park here. We're not [00:14:00] supposed to, but we don't know that.
And four things start to happen. The first thing is we start getting all those small self benefits. We get our story. We love our story. We get to be right. We get someone to back up. Back up. Let's go back to the story. This is important. Tell us what, what do you mean when you say the story? What? ~What are you talking about and why do we want this?~
~We get, because this is a big. Yeah. We get, we like, we, I know it. I am, ~I know when I'm speaking to someone and I can tell they have rehearsed that story a thousand times. They have shared it that same way. They've been duped. They've been blindsided. Can you believe he or she did that? ~I can't believe it. Uh, and, and it becomes, it just becomes who they are.~
Is that like the same thing as ~like ~what they call ~like ~trauma dumping? Yeah, because think about it. That's the conversation. ~And what happens is, if that's the conversation and, and I'll share the other ways, you know, we get stuck. But ~if this is the conversation you're having and this is the energy you're putting out, the only thing you're attracting back is more of the same.
Right? So you are getting confirmation, right? That Oh yeah, this is terrible, awful, horrible. Yes. And that's the only thing you're having. And then if you go to a therapist, well-meaning, but [00:15:00] if they're not highly skilled in betrayal, it's doing more harm than good. ~Mm-hmm. ~Because you are feeling heard and validated and understood.
~Mm-hmm. ~You're not an inch closer to the next stage. And this is where people get really angry again. 'cause you're like, I've been going to that therapist for years. You mean to tell me I was stuck in stage three? Yeah. That's crazy. Glue for stage three. ~Yeah. ~Yeah. Because it's reinforcing it. Exactly. It's reinforcing it.
And there's definitely a need to feel heard, validated, and understood. That's more of a stage two thing. Mm-hmm. We need to regulate the nervous system, find ourselves on solid ground again. But if all we're doing is releasing, ~re ~giving ourselves ~a, ~a temporarily sense of relief and nothing's changing, we're solidifying that spot in stage three.
And the longer we're there, the harder it seems. To leave. 'cause we can't imagine anything other than that. And also, this is where we'll join some lame support [00:16:00] group and now we found our people. Right. So we sabotage ourselves because uhoh they get it, they understand me. Mm-hmm. Here's where we may be healing, but we sabotage our healing because we're afraid to outgrow our arbitrary because we start believing, maybe it's me, right?
Maybe I deserved it, maybe this, maybe that. And now because we're so unhappy in this spot, it gets worse. But I'll get you outta here because it feels so bad. But we don't know there's anywhere else to go. Right here. We start numbing, avoiding distracting. Here's where the addictions come in. So we'll start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, tv, keeping busy, anything to get us through our day.
Mm-hmm. So we do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit. A year, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. Right. And I can see someone 30 years later and say. That drinking or that emotional eating, you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? They'd look at me like I'm crazy. You see it happened 30 years ago.
All they did was put themselves in stage three. And stay there. Does that make sense? It does. ~And I I have a, a question for you. ~The way it shows [00:17:00] up in our practice a lot, 'cause we see addicted family system, I normally see the person that has the addiction. Mm-hmm. I have other coaches that see the family member and we see a lot of partners and spouses.
And this addiction creates a betrayal trauma. Mm-hmm. I don't even know if this is a thing or a word, but I would call it a complex betrayal trauma because it, it happens a bunch of times before it's over. Like, there's a lot of relapses and so it just, it just destroys both people really. Absolutely. And then what we see happen is the addictive person starts to get better, but the family member can't.
And when you're saying like the story, they wanna talk about it. The most common thing that my people, which is usually the betrayal, like stay stuck on, is the fact that their family member's so stuck and they wanna talk about it all the time. And they're like, I don't know what to say. I can't make it better.
I can't keep having this conversation. 'cause it like, you know, it just causes them to shame spiral every time the conversation comes up. ~Yeah. And and that's where, and ~[00:18:00] it's so sad because we see people get sober and then the family falls apart. ~Yeah. ~It's like, then we got all the way here, you know? ~Yeah.~
Yeah. ~And then, but they can't heal. ~It's a really challenging dynamic and we have a program for the betrayer as well, and I see them healing so well and sometimes their partners are so stuck because they're saying, oh, great, they learned their lesson off of breaking my heart off of breaking up the family off of this.
So it's a challenging dynamic because yes, the person who shattered the trust, the betrayer, has now learned and grown and sees things clearly. But they learned that lesson off of destroying the trust ~and the, ~and the heart of the very person that love them the most, that they love the most. So ~it's a, ~it's a challenging dynamic to get through, but that's exactly what happens a lot of times.
And the person who's been betrayed can't let go of the anger. They solidify themselves in stage three. They're doing it to themselves now because it's the anger. [00:19:00] The anger, the upset of what they had to go through for that other person to learn something is they can't get past that. That's a stage three.
That's a stage three life. And what happens is they wind up. That's because they have all the symptoms of post betrayal syndrome. They wind up spending a lifetime medicating and suppressing the symptoms. Nothing's changing because they're drowning in stage three. ~Mm-hmm. ~So common. ~Yeah. ~And ~it, ~it feels like it kind of alternates between cramming it down and exploding, cramming it down and exploding back and forth.
Like it looks okay for a while, and then here it comes, you know, it's like a landmine. And then you didn't even know it was there, you know? And then it, it just. Like those triggers the things and then it, it all boils out. Yeah. And, and what's happening is what we try to instill in them is your healing is not about the other person.
It's about, so you can, you can heal, you can feel better, you can see things from [00:20:00] a place of strength and clarity versus scarcity and fear. ~Mm-hmm. ~Because when you are, when you are, like, imagine you're climbing a mountain. If you're only halfway, you only have that vantage point. But as you go higher, you see over it, you see things differently.
So for their sake, we're doing it. So they get their health back, their strength back, their confidence back, their clarity back. And then, whatever decision they choose to make, it's from a very strong place. But very often they have a hard time seeing the betrayer heal because they're not healing as quickly or because of how badly they're struggling.
~So there can almost be like a, a bitterness or a resentment about the other person getting better, is what you're saying? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Okay. ~But that's where the education comes in, because I let them know, ~uh, ~and our coaches let them know, if you only knew what stage four and five felt like for your sake, you wouldn't waste a minute in stage three.
Because when you feel the freedom of a new way to think, a new way to act, a new way to react, when you experience the [00:21:00] health benefits, when you see things from such a different healthy space it's, you're not punishing the other person by you getting sick and sad and stuck. You're healing so that you feel better.
And then whatever you decide to do with this new relationship, the truth is we see many 2.0 relationships when both of them do the healing. Like for example, I'll show you something, you'll never forget this is what most people do. ~And I still wanna get you to stage four and five, but here's what most people do.~
They're in a relationship, then there's a betrayal. They're so sad. They feel so broken, they're so upset, they're so lonely. They just want that feeling to go away. So they go back with, with that person or someone new, and they do this for life. This is exhausting. ~Mm-hmm. ~So the whole idea is when you get to stage four and stage five, you're gonna feel like this.
But what happens is if you're so committed to this person or someone new, you're gonna keep sabotaging yourself. ~But you like that? How, what does that look like in, in reality? When you say in that, what does that, how does that manifest? Yeah. ~That means, you know what, this is, this feels good, but it's too new.
It's too unfamiliar. Let me just go back to the familiar, known. [00:22:00] I know there's gonna be repeat betrayals. I know nothing's changing, but it's what I know. ~Oh, is it like ~afraid to get my hopes up? So if I expect the worst, then I won't. Be heard? Or is it that kind of thought? Or is it something else?
Yeah it's kind of like that, but it's like, I don't wanna change because if I change, I see things differently ~from this space. Right. ~And the person I'm dealing with is here. So if instead ~I just, ~I just try to put it behind me as best I can without really doing any work to change, then I can continue to make this work.
But we do this right? But then what happens is we're like, but I like it up here. ~Why can't they do this? ~They're not ready, so then eventually we get this where, wait, wait, the sometimes this person down here reach up and grab this person and yank them down there. 'cause I feel like I see that sometimes.
Yeah. ~Okay. ~Because what happens is this person says, ~uh ~oh, it's not gonna work if this person's up here. So let me love bomb them. Let me throw them off kilter. Let me, I have to do [00:23:00] something. So they come down here. 'cause I don't really wanna make those changes. ~Okay. ~I'm not ready. I'm not willing. So if they're doing this, ~I'm, ~I better knock them down.
That's the only way I can keep this, so they're gonna sabotage. They're gonna do all they can. Who do you think you are? You're never gonna get better than me. What do you, you know, whatever. ~All those things. ~So they might sabotage by love bombing or pulling you in, or they might sabotage by instigating.
~Mm-hmm. ~Like an old argument to come back or something like that. ~Yeah. ~Or chipping away at their self-esteem. ~Oh, yeah. ~Just because if they chip away, you know, what do you think? Who do you think you're, you think you're that great? No. If they chip away, then this person who's, it's really fragile on this write up.
So then they say, oh, you know what, maybe they're right. Okay. And then they stay. ~Now is it, is it. Just one. ~Is it usually the betrayal or the betrayer or the betrayed up here, or it just flip flops? ~And it can be either side. ~It depends on the person. It depends on the relationship. Sometimes let's say it's a betrayer and they're like, what in the world?
~Who, who was that? ~I gotta get my act together. Like, [00:24:00] oh my gosh, there's remorse and empathy and apology, and how do I make this up to you? And this person is just not willing. Yeah, because ~they, ~they feel like they lost control of everything. So the only thing they have control over is withholding forgiveness, let's just say.
And they're using it as like a power move because they're like, but maybe not consciously. No. You know, it's not like they're having that thought. Right. It's more like, ~yeah. ~Yeah. They're just in so much pain. So they're seeing this person and they're like, oh, look at you. You're all great now. ~Yeah. ~But you destroyed me.
~Nope. And they, ~and they can't even get past them. They're blinded by their own anger ~and, ~and upset rightfully so. ~You know, ~I mean, they were following the rules of the relationship and this person didn't, but ~then again, ~now they woke up. They see it clearly. So ~we never know it. It's, ~we see it in so many different ways.
Ideally what happens is they both completely crash and burn and say, that's it. I'm doing this. Whether they're the betrayed or the betrayer. The other one's like, I better step up my game and then they meet up again [00:25:00] up here. Like for example like with my family, there was really nothing to work with. I healed and moved along with my husband as two totally different people.
~I did this on his own. He did this. ~We married each other again. Wow. But, you know, both of us were two very different people up here. Okay. You know, that's interesting. But you don't know when you are doing this. You have no idea what's gonna happen. And that's the scary part, because people settle for, but I know this.
This is what I know. Even if it stinks, even if it means relapse, even if it means the unknown, even if it means I live in a state of hypervigilance, even if it means I'm struggling with all of these symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, I can count on that. I know this. ~It's, ~it's reliable, it's consistent.
~That's it. ~But this is new health, new, very new level of relationship, either with the person who hurt you in a very different way or with someone totally new. Because when this is who you are and this is where [00:26:00] you live. And this person doesn't budge. ~Right. ~Eventually, you get this, but this can't help but show up because this is who you are.
Now you're unwilling. To play over here. Right. This is the only thing you attract. Like when I did this, I, it was like, okay, that's, I have no idea what's gonna happen. You know, in my marriage. I wasn't counting on any of this, but this is who I am now, and I'm working towards this for my kid's sake, for my client's sake.
~And then on my own, on his own. My husband's like, what, what in the world? So he did this and that happened. I, I see, I see. That definitely happen on both sides. ~The most common way we see it with addiction is the addictive person starts to get better. Mm-hmm. The, the traumatized person stays stuck. And I feel so bad for them because they know it.
And so they'll like you, they'll be good, they'll be on their good behavior. They'll hold it all in, and then something will happen, and then they lose their mind and they're like I shouldn't have done that. ~They C3, ~they can't help it. And they're like, it's. Terrible cycle. Yeah. And 'cause in stage three, they can only think stage three [00:27:00] thoughts, right?
They can only do stage three things. That's all they have access to, right? When they move to stage four, stage four thoughts, stage four moves, stage five. Stage five thoughts, stage five moves. But they're only, they're keeping themselves in the spot where that's, that's the best they can do. Numb, avoid, distract, minimize, try to outrun it, right?
Try to be okay with it, but nothing's really changing. But then like in that circumstance, the betrayer, when that happens, you know, there's this thought of, well, I deserve it, I caused this, and we keep spiraling. Or it can be in reverse, like if the addictive person doesn't get better and eventually the family member moves on, man, let me tell you, they really get stuck.
Yeah. 'cause and not only are they emotionally stuck, but they're pouring so many substances on the top. The chances that they can come out of it or they can even see it. ~Yeah. ~Yeah. Slimmer and slimmer. Well, especially when they're stuck in their shame. I mean, shame is the most debilitating emotion we have.
It does nothing for [00:28:00] the person who caused the pain or who was the, you know, addicted. And it's doing nothing for the person they hurt. So how do you heal shame. You bring light to it. You bring honor to it. So for the person who's feeling shame when they do every single thing in their realm and their, you know, their ability to right the wrong, pay it forward, do whatever they can begin to grow and begin to heal.
And then when they're doing that, the person they hurt has to do their own work. But then they can learn to see, oh, this person does get it. They are very different. And it is, it's one of those things where. They'll start to see it, not even from the big things, from the little things like, wow. In the past they never would've said that.
They never would've done that. It's in those daily little micro moves and they look different too. It's a different look in the eyes. Can you talk, just because you and I love, I love this 'cause you talk about the difference in recovery and transformation. Yeah. I love, can you talk to us about that a little bit?
Yeah, sure. ~Uh, ~so, you know, I use [00:29:00] this analogy of a house. ~Um, ~it just, it really explains it. And let's say there's an old house. ~Uh, ~this is the difference between resilience and transformation. Let's say the house needs a new roof. You get a new roof, that would be resilience. You're restoring it, or it needs a new paint job, and you paint you.
Mm-hmm. That's resilience. You're restoring it. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by and levels the house. ~Mm-hmm. ~A new roof's not gonna fix it. A new paint job's not gonna fix it. Both won't fix it. And here's the thing. You have every right to stand there at the lot where your house once stood and say, this is the most terrible, awful, horrible thing that's ever happened.
~And you'd be right. And you can call over everybody you know, and say, look at this. Isn't this the worst thing you've ever seen? They'd all agree. Mm-hmm. ~And you have every right. To mourn and grieve the loss of your house until your last day. However, should you choose to rebuild the house, you don't have to.
But if you choose to, why would you build the same house? There's nothing there. Right. Plus you, you know, there was things about that other house you didn't like anyways. ~Exactly. ~Now you always want that sun porch or that. Yeah. You know, those hardwoods or whatever. [00:30:00] That's the opportunity. You can build it back like you want it.
That's it. So you have an opportunity to build something that never would've existed, have the experience not happened. That's trauma well served. That's what's missed when we keep trying to overlook, not deal, medicate, suppress our symptoms. That's patching up the house. Patching up the house.
People are so afraid of that death and destruction of the old load. But that's the only way you birth the new. Only way. Whether it's a new you or a new collective, you in a very different way. And ~that ~that is transformation. And I say all the time, you know, people say, how can you, how do you do this work all the time?
Listen, all my favorite people are in recovery. ~I'm gonna using word though. ~Because you don't just come out of it in your back to your old self. You can't come out on the other side of this. ~I say this all the time. ~No, you will. You have to be stronger, better person. Like the level of insight, humility, self-reflection.
You're just. You build these muscles that regular humans don't have because there's no way. ~Yeah. ~If you get on the [00:31:00] other side of it, it's like climbing that mountain, you're gonna have some bigger calf muscles or whatever. Like there's no way to get there without it. Exactly. ~Yeah. And you know what it is too?~
It's because you are intentionally and deliberately recreating yourself. And you know, I have a saying, I've been using this 34 years that I've been in business. It holds true for just about every topic. ~And it's ~hard now, easy later, easy now, hard later. ~Mm-hmm. ~Take a pick. Its one of those two. ~Mm-hmm. ~And when it comes to healing from betrayal, it is hard now, easy later because when a thought comes in before, ~before you process it, ~you are like, wait a second, was that the old me and this new me that I'm creating?
Would he or she say that? Think that, feel that. If not, it's not coming along. And so what you're doing is you're taking all the parts you love and you are leaving behind everything that no longer serves. And that's exactly. Same, exact same process that the addictive person goes through. Yeah. I have the thought, I call them monster miles.
~Mm-hmm. ~You know, have the thought and, and then you say, is that really true? Is that, you know, ~what, ~where's that come from? ~What's, ~what's it really telling me? [00:32:00] Exactly. And you decide what to do with that thought. Exactly. It's a parallel process. ~Yeah. ~But what most people do, they do the easy now, hard later, but the, and now I know I can already hear the people saying, but it stinks.
What do you mean easy? This is really hard. Yes. In that it's really uncomfortable and it's painful. The situation you're living in easy now because you are not doing those, those mental changes, those physical changes to change your existing situation. Right. So when I say hard now, leading to the easy later, I'm saying challenging every single scenario.
Like where if the old you. Let's say a boundary was crossed and you're like, Ugh, I don't have the head to deal with it. Uhuh, there's no more of this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All of it. You're questioning all of it. ~Yeah. ~It's a rebuilding. It's a whole new, it's a whole new world. You're building a new house.
Do you see, how long does it take to build the new house? ~It has, it's such a great question. ~It [00:33:00] has more to do with willingness than time, ~because I do, you used the word choice earlier. That might rub people wrong. Is that part of it? But tell us about that. ~It's really interesting because there's a reason why therapists are very, very busy with betrayed partners.
And I appreciate that because it could take years just ~talking about it, ~talking about it until they meet somebody else or whatever. No, our methodology is, ~it's quick. It's ~quick, but that's because you're realizing I deserve so much better than this. I deserve to get my health confidence, re relationships that I want back in a new and different way.
So ~it's, um, ~it's about the transformation. It's about using the biggest pain you ever had as a catalyst to your transformation, where I would say the majority of people are very comfortable with the story and ~they would rather have ~they would rather have the story. Now, that's not to say even when someone says, no, no, no, I want to experience this transformation.
~The move still can be incremental, but the goal is the same. ~The goal is I'm going to use this experience to create a version of me that never would've been [00:34:00] created otherwise. ~Right. ~Where ~that's, ~that's not the same goal with other people who've been betrayed. ~Well with, and two, ~like most people that have this can recognize that it's turned them into somebody they don't like anymore.
Mm-hmm. And most people, it for sure can realize I don't like this version of me that I've become. Yeah. And I don't wanna be this anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Because think about it. Look how much power you're giving the experience. Not only has it broken your heart and broken your trust now it's making you sick.
It's making you untrusting, it's making you just turn into this version, you're like, who am I? I don't like, I don't like how I'm showing up at all this professionally pro. It just turns you into a crazy person. ~It does. I mean, there's just no nice set to say it. It does. ~And ~when, ~when it's happened to you, you know, you're like, I'm a crazy person.
~Like, yeah. And because you're all over the place. Mm-hmm. ~Nobody, nobody experiences. ~The, ~this type of trauma just to become a crazy person. ~Right. ~Right. You can feel it, ~but you, ~but it's like, you know, you feel like I can't really control it. Yeah. When it's happening. But that's stage two and you can't in stage two, ~two.~
~Mm-hmm. ~That's why you gotta get to stage [00:35:00] three. Get yourself on solid ground again, but don't stay there. ~Mm-hmm. ~Then get yourself into stages four and five so you can create this version of you that is just so much healthier, so much happier, so much more confident because of what you learned. Right.
And you come out the other side transformed. They totally remodeled you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I tell you how many people we see in stages four and five, new, very new and different relationships, new businesses. I can't tell you how many new businesses are like the PBT Institute. That was a stage five thing.
~I, I didn't have access to stuff. Thoughts like that. Early on, ~marrying my husband again, that was a stage five thing. We see stuff like that all the time. New levels of health. When we're stuck in our trauma, we're drowning in, ~uh, ~trauma soup. We can't think of anything outside of that except getting through our day.
Right. It takes over. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. But there's so much more, so much more if we're willing, like if we knew what stages four and five felt [00:36:00] like we wouldn't waste our time in stage three from it. ~What does it feel like? It feels, ~it feels so empowering because it's earned. You know, ~it feels, ~it feels joyful because you're seeing things from a perspective of you've been there and back.
Yeah. ~Uh, ~there's a sense of pride. Oh, enormous sense of pride. Yeah. ~You know, ~it's like if something was given to you versus earned, right? ~Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ~You've earned this. ~Yeah. It, it feels, ~it feels very different. And the choices you're making are coming from such a different place. Confidence is just completely like transformed confidence, self-love.
You appreciate yourself, you start giving yourself the same love, guidance, support you give everybody else. Because you realize, wow, look what I've been through and all. And also things that seem so monumental. You're like, if I could get over that, that's nothing. Yeah. Perspective. Yeah, definitely.
Perspective. Absolutely. Do you have time to answer a few questions for our people who are on [00:37:00] here live? Oh, I'd love to. ~No live chat. Okay. Yeah. ~Brie's gonna select some questions. So if you're watching, we don't get this opportunity much. We have a real life betrayal trauma. I'm like a total expert here, so now's the time out, the questions.
Mm-hmm. ~Um, ~I did put a link to Debbie's website is down there. The other resources are down there, so make sure you check those out. Is there another place where they should look for you, other than your website? I mean, I'm all over, but everything can you know, is from the website, the PBT as in post betrayal transformation, the pbt institute.com.
Okay, good. And it's linked down there. And I will put it after the video released, I'll put it in the comments too, so people Great. All right, Bree, what do we got? We got some good questions. All right. Michelle says. Can you talk about how to manage personal regulation after your addicted loved one is verbally abusive when drinking and then normal the next day, like nothing happened.
Ooh, this is ~a ~a good question 'cause it's common. ~Yeah, ~it's really hard because~ you know, the, the, ~the [00:38:00] drinking is taking away from their responsibility, right? They don't even know what they're saying probably at the time. So, that's where the personal boundaries have to come in. So maybe you just refuse to listen, you know, you just walk away or you're just not around to hear that.
And then something has to change. This is the dynamic and the pattern that's been set up, right? ~And then ~the next day it's like nothing happened. ~And then, ~so whatever you are doing, just to be okay to move through that dynamic, that set up, that pattern has to be shockingly broken for something to change.
Because when the pattern is, has been set up, that's the expected behavior result response. And nothing changes if nothing changes. It really is about changing the pattern. Like if you've always been super nice about it, maybe you should get a little tougher about it. If you've always been super hard, hard about it, maybe she get a little nicer is you have to shift the pattern.
Yeah, yeah. And ~un ~until that pattern shifts, it's really impossible to expect anything [00:39:00] different. And so like with what Michelle's saying, you're feeling dysregulated because last night the person did or said, or whatever, all these crazy things, which they either don't remember legitimately.
Mm-hmm. Or are pretending not to remember 'cause they don't wanna deal with it. ~And then of course that's insulting and every kind of thing to you. ~And so you wanna tell them about it. Well, last night, blah, blah, blah. And then what does that person do? ~They either, they do something to make you stop because it makes them feel uncomfortable.~
~So ~they either put their spikes out and stay and do more herbal things, or gaslight or arvo or something. Or they just say, I'm really sorry, I'm not gonna do that. You know, anything to get you to stop. And then it just, the cycle keeps happening. And Michelle, I would really invite you to take out a calculator or your phone and really assess how many times has this, this exact or close to exact scenario happened.
And you will see how deep that pattern is, and it needs a pattern interrupt. And it sounds like that pattern interrupt is gonna be coming from you. Right? As in, when that begins early in the stages, you just remove [00:40:00] yourself. You just don't, you don't leave yourself. If there's a way, now sometimes it's complicated, you know, if it's your spouse and you have little children, I'm not saying it's easy, but you have to, you have to get outta that pattern somehow.
Something ~different, something to something to, ~to shift ~the, ~the flow of what's happened over and over again. Because it's almost like ~you don't even, ~you don't even have to hear the words. It's the same thing. ~Mm-hmm. ~It's a script. It's predictable. ~Yeah. Yeah. ~And ~that's the, ~that's what needs to be broken.
Because when a version of you who realizes you deserve better doesn't act, react, perform the same way as you were, the person who's saying in doing the damage says, oh, what? We don't usually do it like this. That's what you want. It gets their attention. Like, it's like now they're paying attention. Right?
So like sometimes I'll tell people, like, if you're usually angry about it and yelling and screaming, maybe you should let your sadness show, because I know it's in there. And if you're always [00:41:00] sad and you cry about it all the time, then maybe you should let your madness show. You know, you gotta, you gotta shift the gears some.
~Yeah. ~Yeah. Dramatic shift in this pattern. Absolutely. What else do we got, Brie? All right. Stephanie says, how do you deal with a. Party who always brings up their past to blame you for how they feel today when it's not related to you. If they're stuck in blame and trauma, how do we enjoy each other?
~Another good? Yeah. ~Well ~that, ~that sounds like somebody ~who, ~who is deeply, deeply stuck in stage three. So ~what, ~it's so common, I hear so many people who are like, I have no reason not to trust my partner, but my last few partners betrayed me. So ~I'm just, ~I can't help it. I'm going into this with the same thing.
That person is not healed. So when they're telling, unless they are, they're sort of, projecting that onto you and then we hear self-fulfilling prophecy, right? It's like when this is what we think will happen enough, we create it. ~Yeah. ~Not saying you are gonna do these things, but that's what this person is expecting.
~'cause they're only going by what they know and by their prior experience. Right. ~If it's change. [00:42:00] Always, everyone leaves me, you know, I'm gonna get left or abandoned. And then because of that, they push people away. Exactly. Then guess what happens? ~Yeah. ~Left and abandoned. This person is stuck in stage three and until they get into stages four and five, they're only gonna recreate stage three.
'cause that's all they know. And they're not doing it consciously. No, ~but they, ~but it is happening. Mm-hmm. All right. Mary says, where do I take my mind? In the early days when, a week ago he was buying me perfume and then moved outta the house with his, when his addiction was exposed again and hasn't checked in.
So it's like being so nice, bought me perfume, everything was great. Then his addiction came out and now he's left the house. Won't, won't even talk to me. Yeah, this is, it has not Mary, what I would first, the first thing is, even though it's happening to you, it has nothing to do with you. It's not about you.
It's not about you. So it sounds to me like the first thing is untangle the thought that it, this has anything to [00:43:00] do with you. That's, and you can, you can hear that that's in here because it's like, last week he was buying me perfume and now he won't talk to me. So what's the deal with that? So it's like, you can hear that there's some thought about like, why is he reacting to me these certain ways?
~Yeah. ~Because it's about him. It's not about you. So the more you realize it's not about you, and the more healing you do, you know, ~here's, ~here's something that I would invite you to do, Mary, when we think of, you know, best case scenario, we only have a hundred percent of our time, right? If we're taking 40, 50, 60%, why is he doing this?
Why is he saying this? Why is he acting like this? We only have the rest for our own healing and support. So what I would say is, whatever you can harness back 10%, 20%, 30%, use that for your healing. Again, you're not making any decisions now, but you are healing so that you see things from a place of strength and clarity versus scarcity and fear.
What does that mean? Use that for your own healing? Like instead it's kind [00:44:00] of, Gary, what does that mean? Instead of the focus being, 'cause the entire focus is why is he doing this? Why is he acting like this? Why is he behaving like this? He used to do this. He, he, he, what I'm saying is when we're only focused on the other mm-hmm.
We're not focused on ourselves. It is his issue that's affecting you. But we need to get you strong so that his actions, his words, his behaviors don't debilitate us the way they've been. Right. So the stronger we get, the more secure we get, the healthier, the more healed we get. We see. That behavior in a new way that forces him to either step it up or you are at least seeing things from a much stronger place.
~Right? ~The more secure you are, it's about getting your security back. 'cause sometimes people think, well, it's about like doing the thing you said, like not being able to connect to people, not trusting, again, pushing people away. They think that that's healing, [00:45:00] but it's not. ~It's not. They think it's coming from a place of strength.~
It's not. It's they're becoming hardened, not healed. Plus we got Brie Sophia says how to get over an excessive need to control after. Now Sophia's asking the right question, getting betrayed. I feel like this has occupied my whole mind and I always anticipate something happening. This is a good question.
~Yeah. He has, there's a little bit more, ~he has lost some trust in me because of things that he thinks I did to him. During his amphetamine intoxication, what you're saying is like, he has some paranoid thoughts. This happens a lot. Like he thinks you did certain things and I didn't do it, and it hurts me that he thinks that I betrayed him.
~Mm-hmm. So it's like, so I didn't, I didn't hear the first part. ~So did she betray and now he, what she's saying is she's having obsessive thoughts, wanting to control. He had a methamphetamine addiction. Okay. So she's the betrayed, but in his methamphetamine addiction and psychosis, he has a paranoia and thinks she betrayed.
Okay. ~Which, ~which happens. So this is like ~a, ~a double complicated here. ~Yeah, yeah. ~You know, ~he, here's the thing. ~You [00:46:00] can't convince anyone of anything. And somehow it's suiting him to believe what he wants to believe about you. You can't control that. And in fact, trying to prove all the reasons why that's not the case is only gonna make you sick and sad and stuck.
And you've seen. You are getting nowhere fast. So again, this is about how do you strengthen you, you, you know what you did or what you didn't do. Stay true. Stay strong in that. But to spend the effort on convincing somebody, I have yet to see that ever work one time. ~E ~especially when it comes to a delusion, Sophia, you can't, that's what a delusion is.
It's a falsely held belief despite evidence. And the more you try to give him evidence, the more complicated the delusion becomes. ~But this is super interesting because this is like this other person. ~He has betrayal trauma, even though he wasn't betrayed. ~Yeah. Like he could be stuck in the, ~he could be stuck in like a stage two or three, even though it didn't even happen.
Yeah. Because it's about a perceived [00:47:00] hurt wrong. ~Yeah. ~But that comes from somewhere and that needs to be looked at, assessed work through, not ever making any. Action. Okay. But that's where the work comes in, because this is a person mean, think about it anybody who's addicted to anything, they're doing that for a reason to escape something instead of facing it, feeling it, healing it.
So they've chosen that. So clearly there's something there that needs to be looked at. ~And, ~and there was some sort of betrayal somewhere, or even betrayal of his own expectations of maybe what his parents should have been doing ~or who, uh, ~I have no idea. I don't know the experience, but either way, that's being projected onto you now.
You cannot be maybe past relationship, maybe anything. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What else do we got? Brie? These are great questions. ~That was a, that was a Doy right there. It's like a double. Yeah.~
Yeah. She's pulling this one. Okay. KSA says, how are you supposed to heal while still being married? You know, this is a really this is a [00:48:00] hard one. And there are so many layers and levels to this. And it's not for me to say, what's right or wrong for someone, but I can tell you if nothing changes, nothing changes.
Some people have, ~you know, ~an in-home separation. Some people have a drastic and dramatic shift of boundaries, whatever it is, what will not work. We have so many people coming into the PBT Institute with like therapy, trauma, counseling, trauma. If you are going to, let's say, couples counseling, ~again, ~well meaning counselors, but if the goal is just to get you okay.
Without that betrayer, clearly seeing what they've done and without the betrayed doing the work to heal. They're just getting everything minimized and ~the be ~the betrayer just sort of gets like a slap on the wrist. We've heard people are like, they say to the betrayed, well, you know, if you just communicated better or if you, this has nothing, someone's actions have nothing to do with you.
Mm-hmm. It's not a mistake, it's a [00:49:00] choice. So someone choosing to betray can't be minimized. So whatever you feel is the most dramatic move you can make in this scenario. You have, do not expect it to be easy though. Again, if it's not gonna shake things up, it's not going to create the change.
Okay. So, so it's not about whether or not you have to leave or you stay. There's no rule about ~it, but ~it, but what you are saying, there's gotta be a shift. ~So ~if you're still playing the same old roles. Still just doing the same old things gonna get the same result. You're just trying to, you're trying to patch up that house.
Okay. Yeah. When we need a, a full remodel, you know, ~it's the, ~it's like the same thing I get all the time people say about the kids, you know, now, like in my scenario, my husband was the one who told my kids. So if anything has you wake up, it's realizing you just lost all the people that meant the most.
'cause when you have your kids looking at you like you did what you know so that's [00:50:00] profound. And so many people, and this is so common where the betrayed protects the betrayer. To their own detriment at their own expense. So let's say they don't tell the kids, and again, I'm not here to say what's right or wrong for you and your family, but they protect the betrayer.
And if the betrayer iss okay with that, how much change is the betrayer really doing if they're willing to throw you under the bus In that way, your kids are really smart and really perceptive. They know something's off. And if you're covering for the way you're, you're behaving, if you're covering for the betrayer, where's the healing?
Where's where are your needs being met? Be very aware. But what if you're doing that because in your mind you're protecting, you're not protecting the betrayer, you're protecting your kids. And it's so common from knowing it. ~Yeah. ~Well, here's the thing, and I've seen it many different ways. First of all, kids are so resilient and ~I have seen, I, ~I can even, I could just speak personally for myself.
The kids saw me crash. They saw me rise. And the skills they [00:51:00] have now as adults is way more powerful than them just seeing, me. Struggling and silent and sick and all of that. Now there are other scenarios where the kids don't know. Maybe they're too young or maybe they are just trying to protect them.
~Oh, you know, the wedding's coming up. We don't wanna shake things up, we don't wanna, you know, the kids' wedding, whatever. And, ~and like I said, I am not here to say what's right or wrong, but, ~uh, what I, ~what I can say, ~just even, not even from my own coaches that I've seen or whatever ~from my own personal experience, yes, it's hard, but I've seen tremendous strength in my own kids that wouldn't have happened if they didn't see that.
It's not so much about what you're doing, it's about why you're doing it. Yeah. Not so much about whether you should or shouldn't tell the kids. It's about why am I either choosing to tell it? Am I telling the kids? 'cause I'm mad? So the person I'm trying to punish them, am I telling the kid, am I not telling the kids?
'cause I'm, it's about the why. Not the thing. Yeah. ~And more, even more to that is ~take a look at the betrayer. If the [00:52:00] betrayer is perfectly fine, seeing you struggle and suffer in silence how does that feel and work within your relationship? Something to look at.
~Uh, ~Heidi says, how do you tell, ~uh, ~my addicted loved one that I have trauma from their addiction over the years? ~Yeah. It's, are they ready to hear it? ~Are they able to hear it? If they're still, addicted, ~are they checked out? ~Are they facing it? ~Are they ready? ~This takes a full crash and burn.
So do they have the space to hear this? ~Uh, but ~the true healing happens when. ~Like I said, ~everything crashes, ~and we look at it as I'm just gonna avoid~
is being built. We've all heard of the butterfly, you know, going into the, the cocoon. That butterfly is willing to be deconstructed, emulsified, unrecognizable from anything it once was, only because it went through that. Does it get to be the butterfly? It's messy, not gonna lie. Just to play a little a little devil's advocate here, because [00:53:00] I am usually the one that's seeing the betrayed, so I am the devil's advocate, honestly.
Yeah. What I hear from that side of the point of view is. Is that their loved one wants to tell it to them over and over again. And a lot of my clients will say, no matter what the fight starts about, could just be regular stuff. ~Mm-hmm. ~And then the betrayed maybe does or says something out of bounds.
They'll say, well, it's your fault because you did it. I'm not saying that's what's going on with you, Heidi, it's just that your question sparked me to remember that. ~I'm not saying that's what's happening here. ~And I can tell you that all happens in stage three as you move to stage four. It's a different conversation.
It's, that's not happening when that's happening. ~Uh, ~sometimes it's a just a reminder to let that person know, don't you forget what you did to me. Yeah. It's about the why you're telling it. ~Yeah. And I, what do you think about this? 'cause I usually tell people. ~Instead of saying, ~um, ~to someone what they're doing or did wrong, just tell 'em what you need.
~Mm-hmm. ~Just say, man, it would just help me so much if ~mm-hmm. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. ~So you're [00:54:00] asking for what you need to feel better, trusted, love, connected to whatever. Because a lot of times it's like, if we think, if we tell them what they did wrong, they're gonna learn a lesson and they're gonna do better.
But a lot of, for a lot of people, it just makes them defensive and they really just make it worse. Yeah. Because then they say a bunch of terrible things and they make it worse. But most people respond Okay. To just being said, you know, it would really help me if you would call me when you're leaving work and you're home, whatever it is.
If you just ask for what you need, they'll do better usually, you know? ~And I, ~and I love that, and I'll add to that and then I'll say, because a lot of people just don't even understand. And so I would add to it and say, it's totally fine to say, even though you may not understand it, it's okay. It's just what I need.
Because that takes them off the hook of I, but I don't understand why he or she needs this. It doesn't matter. You don't have to understand it. It's just what I need. Yeah. Sometimes you can even say, I know I'm probably being super [00:55:00] hypersensitive here, but this would really help me. And ~people can, ~people can hear there's a lot more likelihood that they'll hear it.
They'll, ~they ~understand what you're telling 'em and they'll give you what you need instead of just being defensive and trying to turn it on you ~and all that stuff that, yeah. Yeah. ~Again, ~it's not ~it's noticing that pattern. ~Mm-hmm. ~If that's the same setup that happens all the time and it's not bringing you the result you want, it needs to be changed.
Yeah. Amber says, can you give suggestions on how to help healing get started for the person that was betrayed besides therapy? 'cause I'm already in that. Yeah. ~Well, as I said, well-meaning therapists, I know I certify a bunch of them. And ~if you are only feeling heard, validated, understood, it's keeping you in stage three, you learn the stages now, ~well, actually I didn't even get you to stages four and five, but you know, ~if you're in stage three, you need to get out of stage three into stage four where your transformation begins.
So I would suggest finding out if your therapist is very qualified in betrayal. A-A-P-B-T coach is certified in moving you through the stages. But if you're just reinforcing stage [00:56:00] three, it's very hard to heal because Right. If your therapist is just making you feel hard and understood, or just encouraging you to leave, which I'm not saying you shouldn't leave, I'm just saying that's not healing you.
No. If your therapist is encouraging you to work on you. ~And that's a good song and healing also. ~It doesn't just, we think, okay, well we'll just do talk therapy and, you know, emotionally get some some healing done. This is, ~um, ~betrayal hits us on every level, so every level needs to be addressed. It's very incomplete healing if we just talk about it.
It's somatic. The issues are in the tissues, like it's a multi-pronged approach to fully a somatic healing. ~Yeah. ~Let me ask you this. I can't believe this question hasn't come up, so I'm just gonna throw it out there because this is the big ~Yeah. ~One of the first things that happens to you when you're in stage two and you've had this and you're in the like, really spiraling stage.
~Yeah. ~Almost always. The person feels like what's gonna make them feel better is to know every single thing that happened. They wanna [00:57:00] know every detail, and I'm always like. What's your take on, on that, like, about whether you should get all the details? You shouldn't get all the details. You should ask for them.
You should give them whatever side you're on. ~Yeah, because that almost always comes. ~Well, you know, it's a, there are many answers to this question, but ~I, ~I'll say it like this. ~If you are going you're not even ready to rebuild something when you're in stage two. But ~if you're going to rebuild something, it can't be on a shaky, unstable foundation.
It needs to be on something rock solid. So that's where a full disclosure comes in, where it's a, it's just, it's the throw up of what happened, all of this so that the person can realize, okay, there are no more lies, there's no more deception, there's no more of this, and I can start to rebuild. Now having said that~ the, ~some of the details, they're not necessary. But if the betrayed is not hearing a lot of it, and in their mind they're saying there's more that this person hasn't told me, they will never trust, you can't rebuild. ~When there's when things, you know are just, when ~the hyper vigilance will always be there, ~the untrust will, you know, ~the mistrust, the lack of trust will always be there until, ~uh, ~they feel like they know [00:58:00] what they're working with.
Right. But what if they, what if they have heard it all, but they still feel that way? Yeah. They're going to feel like that in stage two until they get to stage three, and then it becomes debilitating for them to learn more details.
~Me, my, me heel. No, it won't. ~No it won't. That you need enough details so that you could say, I know what I need to know now. Now it's about me. I get the big picture of what happened. But I'm telling you, you did not wanna scar yourself by hearing every single tiny little detail, because once you know them, you cannot unknow them.
You cannot. And you'll relive them over and over, especially at night, and then you can't sleep and that's when you do a lot of your healing. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. ~Yeah. Okay. Brie, are we out of time? Okay. I thought we were alright. ~Thank you so much Dr. Silver. This was awesome. This was so needed on both sides. I'm so glad you were here.
~Uh, ~thank you for everyone who showed up live. You guys asked very good questions, very challenging questions, and I'm glad you asked 'em because other people watching this wanna know the answer to those questions that you asked. We'll see you guys [00:59:00] next Thursday if you're watching on the playback.
We're live every Thursday. Thank you so much for joining us. And we'll see you next week. Bye everybody. Thank you.
