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[00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Amber is at a training, so it's gonna be me today, and we are going to talk about an interesting topic. Amber set it up, but it's something that comes up all the time in the membership that Kim and I run. I think it's a perfectly wonderful topic to address, and it really is, should we confront our loved ones, whether it's our child or our spouse or partner?
Should we call them out when they do something while high, while drunk, or around the issue in general, should we call them out on that? It's a complicated question, and I think I'm going to look at it from a, what are the pros, what are the cons, when to do it, when not to do it. But I think first we have to decide why are we calling them out if we decide to do it.
Most of the time we're calling them out because we're mad. It hurt our feelings. We're frustrated. We know they're lying. We know they're using and we're just livid. And that is not the time to call them out if you're going to call them. So the pros to that are we feel better. It's really just in very short term.
Do we feel better? It doesn't change the [00:01:00] situation or very infinitesimally possible change the situation. So I think you have to look at what is my point in pointing it out. And if it's too to vent, to feel less frustrated. That's okay. It's not going to yield you anything, but it's still okay.
If your point is to have them acquiesce, admit and then change because of it, it's not going to work like that. It just, that's not how the addiction thrives. So when we point it out, we usually get what you guys are very familiar with is we get lies. We get denial, we get a fight, we get gaslighting, we get defensive defensiveness in general, because the disease is protecting itself.
And so we have to recognize that's what we're going to get back. And if we feel like venting, knowing that, that's what we're Press on, I prefer not to do that and learn very quickly that wasn't the right way to handle it. Although I did handle like that many times. Once I confronted my son about a big fat lie, and instead of just [00:02:00] saying.
Something super neutral I don't believe your story, but nonetheless, you go ahead and do what you're going to do. I confronted him and he ended up actually punching his hand through a French door and we ended up in the ER. It doesn't really go our way. I think we have to decide when we're pointing something out again.
Why are we doing that? And the reason we're doing that. Is like I've said to venture or get them to admit, but I think really what we want to do instead is we want to recognize, have a conversation with ourselves really important conversation, which is what is the boundary around the behavior that I'm pointing out?
What am I ultimately going to do when this behavior persists? Am I going to ask them to leave the home? Am I going to file for divorce? Am I going to kick them out? Am I going to leave myself? What am I going to do? Because confrontation alone never really gets you what you want it to do. It just is a way for you to maybe get sick and tired of [00:03:00] being sick and tired yourself so that eventually you can have a boundary.
But I think this goes back to Our relationship with ourselves and boundaries. Some people are really good at having boundaries and really good at holding them. Most of us struggle. Most of our clients really struggle with what is the boundary period and then how and when to hold a boundary. You cannot have a boundary unless you are going to hold it.
So in my opinion, this takes a lot of self reflection and pretty serious thought with ourselves because the worst thing you do is Announce a boundary and then not follow through with it. If you're going to confront, if you're going to point out, I think it's important to know that up front with when this doesn't change, what am I going to do about it?
I think that you also have to look at if you're going to point out. how to do and instead of accusing, yelling, pointing out their behavior that you don't like, I think you can do it a couple of ways. You can do it in the, Hey, last night we had some conversations that really hurt my feelings. And I'm [00:04:00] really hopeful that we don't have to have those kinds of conversations again.
That's not really going to get a whole lot of defensiveness. It's probably going to get a shutdown. Is that either you don't remember it or they know darn they were drunk or high and they were guilty, but you're also just making a process comment instead of engaging them in a conversation and process comments are ones where you talk about how you feel or what you have noticed and it's not, it doesn't really have the word you in it.
It's a we like the example I just gave. Another process comment could be, it seems like you are missing a lot of school. I'm sure there are some good reasons for that I'm unaware of, but I'm hoping that you can fix that. So the school will start calling, stop calling me something like that.
You're not saying, why the hell aren't you going to school? You're not saying the school's calling me and I'm livid. You're just making the comment about how you feel about the situation as you have been dragged into it or influenced by it. So process comments are a really good way to. Confront or call out without [00:05:00] really Confronting sort of a soft call out.
You're probably not going to get much feedback on that. Okay. Or I don't know what you're talking about or okay, whatever. That's okay, because you don't really want to engage in the conversation. You just want to love that out there so that it can sit with them. The other way you can do it. There was just, my favorite thing is to use the empowerment triangle and the empowerment triangle.
Remember, is 3 points. It's to empathize. And then to validate or align with, and then to empower. So you could say, in the example I gave earlier with the process comment is I noticed that last night we had an argument and I'm sure that made you feel really uncomfortable or really unhappy.
I can get that. I feel the same way. I'm hoping that you can have a different way to talk to me that doesn't lead us to be like that. Both of us feel like that. Or I'm hoping that we can learn how to engage in different conversations that don't lead us feeling like that as well. And the other example, you could say, hey, the school called me and they keep saying that you're not going to [00:06:00] class.
I'm sure there's something like a really good explanation or a reason that I'm getting these calls. So if you could just take care of that or talk to the office or. Go to school or whatever is going on. I'm going to, I'm going to let you figure out how you want to resolve that situation. You're pointing it out.
You're confronting, but you're doing it in a way that could, and I use capital C with that could lead them to say, yeah, my life is becoming unmanageable. Remember, I just use C with a capital C. And that's not likely with addiction. Their definition of unmanageable is, So low compared to our level of management of manageability, but nonetheless, those comments are not going to hurt and they're going to leave them rather than a confrontation rather than a calling out when we call out a confront.
We just they blame us, right? They flip it and they're like I wasn't going to use, but they're not going to use it. My mom's just nagging me, or I wasn't going to use, but oh my God, she brought up last night. That's false. They were going to use regardless of both scenarios. But then [00:07:00] instead of looking in the mirror and seeing themselves in these instances, they look in the mirror and they see us.
And the sort of end goal of addiction is for them to look in the mirror and see themselves. And their life as it relates directly to themselves. That's what allows them to define unmanageability when we get in the way by confronting by yelling, screaming, nagging, doing all the things that we all do, we are literally feeding the disease.
It's we're putting a little bit of a nose bag on the horse of addiction because those are the fuels is the way they flip that and turn it around and say I wasn't going to, But I am now because this happened. And so remember that if that's not enabling, that's just feeding. Okay. There's a difference.
But if you can stop feeding the disease, it will stop, could stop sooner. It's not going to make it stop, but it will change sort of the reflection in the mirror that they look at, which is this is on me. I made that choice. I did do that. My choices and behaviors are impacting my life negatively.
And [00:08:00] that's the only time when we get into that unmanageability definition from them is when we get a prayer that they'll stop using. Let's see, what else we want to talk about that. So
we talked about boundaries, we talked about getting in. So yeah, I think that's the point of today is like, what is our goal? If we have a goal and we can identify it, do we have a boundary that's going to be around it? Can we hold that boundary or can we not? And then how do we want to do this? And remember, every time they give us a reason to confront them or to point something out doesn't mean we need to respond to that one.
You can hold it. You can think you can let that marinate. You can decide. Is this the hill I want to die on today? Do I really feel like getting into this battle? With addiction, if you miss an opportunity, you're going to get another one in about 15 minutes. So this is also a good point for you to like, where, what is my emotional reserve on this?
And this is an exhausting, fatiguing, sad, and lonely disease. So it's okay for you to say, I'm just going to let this slide. I just don't have the bandwidth for it [00:09:00] today. And I might not ever have the bandwidth for it, but eventually I'm going to get sick and tired of being sick and tired and I'm going to exit.
I'm going to get out of the situation whether I confront or not. All right, let's see if we have any questions because this is a tough topic. And I'm sure we will. Okay. Thank you. With a blackout happens 1 or 2 times a year on certain holidays. Is it best to plan ahead and opt not to be home? Or does this convey lack of trust in their ability to change?
That's a really interesting double sided question. I wouldn't worry about B. If, I wouldn't worry about what you're conveying. This would be an example for you to have a boundary of what you can and cannot tolerate. What you will or will not continue to say yes to. If the blackout is causing you great distress or you harm or emotional turmoil, then simply don't be at home.
Absolutely. If the blackout is, They do things and you don't know how to confront them, or you don't know whether to confront them. That's a different topic. But I'm hoping that what I said the last for the first 10 minutes of this will help you with that. It is always okay [00:10:00] to get ourselves out of the situation.
It is always okay. To decide what we can and cannot handle and what that conveys. I wouldn't spend a nickel's worth of time on that because they're going to construe whatever we do positively or negatively the way that they want to construe it in their heads to validate their own choices and their own actions.
So you make a boundary for you, not for them. All right, this one's for Bailey. What if they tell us that they can't handle our boundaries? That will make them so upset. Oh, okay. Here we go. A boundary is not for them to like or not a boundary is not for them to approve or disapprove of. A boundary is for us.
Yeah, they're not gonna like boundaries. And, but you gotta remember, you don't have to announce them. You can just, Have one. You can hold it. You can execute it. Depending upon the situation, if you think they're going to get upset and scream and yell at you, which they most likely are, if you announce it, then don't.
You will know when you're ready to hold the boundary. Okay? You don't have to define this. I had zero [00:11:00] idea. The morning I woke up and you're ready to go. Asked my 17 year old to leave the house at no idea that was getting ready to happen. I didn't think it through. I didn't plan it. Sadly. I didn't really discuss it with my husband, but it just, it happened.
This event occurred. I saw red, black shooting stars. And I just said, Hey dude, here are the ways to continue to live here. And he said I'm not going to do any of those. I said I guess you decided not to live here. That was a boundary. I didn't even know I was thinking about having, I just, I am no longer willing to live in this chaos.
I am no longer willing to live in this turmoil. I am no longer willing to live with this period. And so I just put down the boundary and that was that. So be aware of that. You guys, you don't have to sit around and make lists of your boundaries. Just, You'll know a boundary is there when you just have this I'm done.
I, this is ridiculous, whether it's engaging in arguments or living with the person or fixing their [00:12:00] problems or bailing them out. These are all boundaries that they're just going to occur. All right. But I think the secret is to. Have that relationship with yourself as the process is going as if this continues, if I feel blank, do I have the ability to have a boundary there?
I've had clients in the past. I'm a couple right now who have lost 1 child due to overdose. Perhaps they've lost a spouse, and now we're in with the second addict, and they don't have the ability to have a boundary around the stealing, the using the living and creating chaos in their lives.
They don't have the capability to have a boundary because of their fear and their complete and rational linkage to the past. If you can't have a boundary, no harm, no foul. If you're overly boundaried like I am, they'll come easily to you, but that doesn't make that better. And it doesn't make not having boundaries worse.
This is an intense relationship with yourself. All right. So I think that's when I'm working with clients, like [00:13:00] what is your relationship with yourself and what is your relationship with your ability to have a boundary and then to hold it because they are They're like that.
They're rated. You cannot have a boundary if you're not willing to hold it.
All right. My alcoholic cousin asked me what he did while intoxicated with alcohol. Should I be the one telling him what he did or said? If he's asking you, then yes, I would tell him, but I would tell him in an aligning either using the empowerment triangle or the I feel statement that we, I just talked about, and so that it doesn't come out like a litany of nagging or a litany of complaints to say unfortunately, you were fairly unkind last night and it hurt my feelings.
I don't think you should you can if he asked you to, but I wouldn't like. Go into extreme detail on it. I would just more do a summary of how you felt based upon his behavior because that's going to resonate with him long term for realizing that it's his reflection in the mirror. That's going to resonate better with him.
He won't get as defensive. [00:14:00] If you say you knocked over the TV and you yelled at the children and you the whole pizza by yourself. They're going to get defensive because that doesn't sound good. And it's, they're going to say something like I didn't mean to do that. Or I only did that because I knew you didn't like pepperoni.
They're going to make up some crap, but they're going to get defensive. And when we get defensive, all of us, it's like a brick in the wall toward truth. The more we cause them to be defensive, the more bricks in the wall are going to keep them from realizing that their life is unmanageable because of their substance use.
Remember that for all conversations. If. Amber came to me and said, you don't make enough videos. Oh, I'd get super defensive. I'd be like, yeah I work, I see 35 clients a week and I have a tree in my roof and I'm exhausted. I'm going to get defensive versus, your videos really speak to people and it would be lovely if you could make some more.
I'm going to start making more videos. So remember you get more flies with honey.
That's Amber's husband. I swear [00:15:00] to Buddha and does not have a full time job. All right. This is from Casey. It only makes me feel better for a minute and then it causes a fight, stress and hurt. So I've stopped calling it out and just walk away. It's too much. You're right, Casey. That's exactly what happens is we're coming at it with logic, right?
And they're coming at it from a completely illogical standpoint because they're the ones whose addiction is running the show, which is living in that Survival part of the brain, which is not smart, is not logical and is not kind. And it's just, you're going to get the beat down and it doesn't feel good.
And it causes our emotional mood to fall. It causes, our can ruin our day can ruin our week. So that's what I meant earlier with, do I have the bandwidth for this or not? Am I going to do anything about it? Even if I pointed out whether he's admits it or doesn't admit it, this goes back to, this is a complicated relationship with yourself.
And. And it's okay to go here and it's okay to be here on this. But if you walk away, decide, I'm just not going to confront it cause it doesn't do any good. And I don't want him to confront it cause it does me [00:16:00] ungood. That's fine. It's okay to be, to not be willing to be ungood, which I know is not a word.
This is from Judy. Can the boundary be lifted? Oh, if so, how and when to go about that? Absolutely. But so yes, my answer in the short is totally. Because it's always our right as a human to change our minds. You could I could have a boundary. I do have a boundary. I don't go out on Friday nights.
I'm tired. I'm tired of talking. I don't have the bandwidth for it. So generally speaking, I don't go out on Friday night, but can I change my mind and say, you know what, that actually sounds really fun and I'm have a light Friday, I'll absolutely go out on Friday night. Yes. Does that mean the boundary was wrong before?
No. Does that mean I can't go back to that boundary? No, it just means I'm going to lift it, which I really liked that word. I'm going to lift it for today. And if so, I would just say that. I would just say I've decided to change my mind. I've decided that I was wrong. I've decided that was harsh. You can but keep it back on.
I've decided. Now, if we're talking [00:17:00] about let's just throw out this example. If you use drugs, you can't live here. That's a big boundary and they use drugs several times. Okay. And you realize you don't have the ability to hold that. Now, in the first place, I wish you hadn't put it down, but people do it.
So you can say, you know what, I thought I was going to be able to ask you to leave, but I'm not. So I don't know what I'm going to do if you continue to use drugs, but I'm not going to ask you to leave, or I'm not going to kick you out of the house. So again, you've left it, you've changed your mind. But in this instance, you haven't said, So it's therefore it's okay.
You're not acquiescing. You're just saying, I don't know what I'm going to do, but you're implying that you're going to do something. And my guess is sooner or later, you will do something. So you just bought yourself. Endless. However much time you need on that and any definition you want to do on that. So you can absolutely lift a boundary.
I would rather that you, if it's a boundary, then it would be something really vague, like my example of not going [00:18:00] out on Friday. If it's I'm going to leave you, if you continue to drink the Children, I are no longer willing to live in this home. If you continue to drink, I'd rather you don't have that boundary if you're going to lift it because you lose your power.
And the disease loves it when we lose our power because it gives it power. So I would be careful on that about when and how to have a boundary and when and how to announce a boundary. It's better to not announce one and think, do I have one? Do I have one? Do I have one? And then have that moment like I did where you're just like, yes, snap, I do have a boundary and here it is.
All right. This is from Carrie. Can you give us some more examples of validation statements for the intoxicated loved one when they're in the middle of the intoxication event and we may not have the ability to leave them or derail them? Ooh, I don't know that I do a whole lot of validating. I guess I can look at it 2 ways.
I wouldn't validate that what they're doing is okay, but if they're ranting in a drunken stupor about how you are impacting them you never listen, you don't [00:19:00] love me. If they're going that way, you can use the empowerment triangle, which is something like. I can understand how that would feel. I would make me feel very sad if I felt that way about you.
And sometimes, I do. And so I understand that's really sad, but I think that we can work toward changing our. Relationship. We just have to talk about it tomorrow. I, you're not going to, you guys know this when they're high or drunk, you're not going to have a productive conversation.
A they probably won't remember it or B they'll twist it to validate continued use. So if you're using it in this case to get yourself out of the situation or to not engage in a fight or to protect yourself, then I would do something like that, which is just Go over to their side and agree with them.
That doesn't mean you actually agree with them. You're just extricating yourself from what sounds like it could be. You can't leave or derail them. If that's protection, then sure, validate away.
Alright, Bailey. What if they say they want to get help but still don't go to rehab, therapist, doctor, etc.? They just say they want to get [00:20:00] better. I feel like I'm going to stand still in progress until she actually goes. Oh, they don't say they'll go to rehab and do all those things for as long as you'll let them do that.
Because that's just an example of words, right? So that words, when they use those words, it's to placate us. It's to buy time. It's to get away with it some more. Yeah, I'm going to go after the holidays. So meanwhile, I'm just going to drink up a storm between now and New Year's. So I think I don't ever listen to words.
And when I hear words from clients, or I hear words from my clients, loved ones, like that says nothing. So when they do that, you can say, great, let me know when that happens and just walk out of the conversation. Don't have a big hairy conversation about when, what they mean by that.
But again, they're not going to stop until they determine their life is unmanageable, which often does put us in the position of, we have to have a boundary that would cause the unmanageability to be felt, to be. Acknowledged. They can come from outside, right? Like you could get a DUI or you could get kicked out of school or your [00:21:00] girlfriend could break up with you or you get fired.
But if we'll tolerate it, it's still going to happen in the home. So I think you have to bear in mind just the old adage that actions speak louder than words and I wouldn't get sucked into the word game.
This is from Bethany. I am sober and starting dating someone who drinks. He says that he wants to eventually slow down, but already have been caught in lies about drinking. Any hope here? Dating sober is hard. Two and a half years for you. I would imagine it's very hard because alcohol is sadly so prevalent in, uh, I, Bethany, I'm going to just, I'm going to wave the flag here.
I hate it. I hate to do it, but he's, you're, he's lying. If he were saying, I'm going to cut down in the next three years and you're drinking, maybe that's not a lie, but he's lying. So to me, that's a red flag. And I'm a, again, very boundary person. But when I see a red flag, I don't need to see a second red flag.
So I would cut on that one. I'm sorry. All right, we have time for one more. All right, Madison, how do you uphold a boundary when your loved one is? Drunk. We talk about that when he is [00:22:00] sober, but the conversation becomes monumentally more difficult when he's intoxicated. So I don't know why you're talking about a boundary.
It does not merit discussion. A boundary does not constitute having to have agreement or buy in and a grant. A boundary is simply something you are no longer willing to do. So something you are no longer willing to say yes to, or something you are no longer willing to tolerate. So I wouldn't be talking about your boundaries if you're going to put it in place.
Put it in place and that's not up for debate. It's not up for approval. It's not up for an argument. It's this is it if I say i'm not going out on friday night. It's not up for debate The no one's going to sway me on that So you don't engage in these conversations when they're drunk or they're sober you just know What is my boundary and when am I going to put it in place?
All right, do we have time for one more really quick one? Nope, we're out. Okay. All right, guys. Thanks a bunch. Amber will be here next week and I enjoyed this and hope it was helpful. Thanks a lot. Bye guys.
