Empowering Boundaries_ Balancing Support and Self-Preservation in Addiction Recovery
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[00:00:00] Today, we're going to talk about the difference between ultimatums and boundaries and why ultimatums don't work and how to make a boundary work. So ultimatums don't work because they sound threatening. And so they therefore cause defensiveness. They cause someone to dig in to spite you.
They can cause a massive decrease in communication and the relationship. And they basically just cause them to lie. They might say, I'll do it, but they're complying without purpose. And then they're just going to lie about it. I hear this all the time. Like I talked to lots of partners, spouses, and they, and even parents sometimes, but they want to give the ultimatum that you have to go to counseling.
And I'm like, but it's going to counseling your goal. And they're like, no. Yeah. Like why? What is your real goal? Your real goal is sobriety. So what happens is they say yeah, but I'm going to make them go to counseling. And that doesn't work because they're just going to go talk to the counselor. If they go at all, they [00:01:00] might lie and say they're going or they're going to go and talk about you and how crazy you are, how wonderful everything in their life is.
They're not going to do what you want them to do in counseling. So that is a really bad ultimatum to put down. And ultimatum is really like a rule. It is, if you don't, then blank. If you don't do this, you can't live here. If you don't do this, I won't stay in the marriage. If you don't do this, I'll move out.
And those are never going to work unless you absolutely say, if you don't stop drinking in the next three months, I'm going to move out. That's fine. That's not really an ultimatum. It's really a boundary. But you remember the difference in this is if you, if it's a boundary, you're going to hold it. So you can't use that as a threat.
Ultimatums to me sound more threateningly. More threatening. So what to do instead is really focus on what is your goal. If your goal is sobriety, then what I would do, and I've had this conversation with a couple of clients in the last week or so, is say, okay, I [00:02:00] love you dearly. I really want you to stop drinking.
It's just not working for the relationship. It's not working in the marriage. So let's talk about that. Now we've gone from ultimatum threat to I'm expressing a need that is super important to me, but now I'm going to align with you. I'm going to, I'm going to say, let's talk about that. Now, if the person at that point said, Screw you.
I'm never going to stop drinking. I don't care. Go on. Then there you go. There's your choice. But most of them will say you're right. I'll cut down. And so then we now become this, go into this bargaining dance. It is perfectly fine to have a boundary that allows for a bargaining dance. You get to decide at what point you don't want to do the bargaining dance.
But I find that we do a lot better with getting our ultimate goal. When we do the bargaining dance with them and we're, and so I have a client who said, her husband said I'm just going to cut back. I'm sure you guys have all heard. I'm going to cut back. I'm only going to drink on the weekends.
She's okay if that works, great. We'll see how that goes. As long as I feel safe in the relationship, I'll support [00:03:00] this for a little bit. And then. Get them to say, this is try it. And if it works, then you say it really enjoys watching that TV show with you. On Thursday, I had a fun time cooking dinner with you on Wednesday night.
And if they drank on the weekend and it's not problematic, just don't say anything. It won't last long. If they truly are an alcoholic, it will blow up. But instead of pointing that out, harshly, is you stay in the alignment role, still having your boundary of if he ultimately doesn't stop drinking, I'm going to leave, but okay.
So that didn't work because you're drinking on a Wednesday. So obviously the weekend thing, we've lost control of. So what's the next thing we can try? And so again, you're going along with it. You're still staying in your boundary, but you're not issuing an ultimatum of if you drink again, I'm out of here because that's not going to work.
It's just going to keep you in the role. You don't want to be in and they're going to dig in and do what I said early, which has become defensive, dig in and fight you on it. Argue with you instead of now. Let's talk about what ultimately is where we both [00:04:00] want to go and are agreeing to go. So what I say about boundaries is.
First of all, decide, do you really want to have a boundary? Do you really, will you hold the boundary? Is this boundary something that is really important to you? And if so, am I going to hold it? If the answer to that is yes, great. Now we're moving. Decide the boundary, keep it simple and clear to you.
You don't have to issue a boundary. You can, but you don't have to keep it general and connected to your goal, not peripheral not maybe before the goal goes straight to the goal. That's where your boundary needs to be held. Like I gave the example earlier, like if your goal is sobriety then the goal isn't to say you have to go to counseling.
Your goal is you need to be sober then align with them, get them to identify how they're going to achieve it or how they're going to tweak it. And you're going to play that bargaining game. And this is important. Act as if they are going to be successful. Don't roll your eyes. Don't say this is never going to work.
This is stupid. Just say, [00:05:00] okay, I'm willing to give that a whirl. , I'm willing to do this. The purpose of this alignment, you guys is so that we now have some connection. Which is important in recovery. So we need a little bit of that oxytocin because you're aligning with them. They're more likely to be honest and they're more likely to work with it.
Again, if they say from the beginning, this is dumb, I'm not doing it. Then none of this is going to hold. Okay. But if they do, if they're saying, okay, I'll work with that. Here's how I want to try it. And we do this all day long with clients. They're like I'm not really ready to give up the alcohol. So I'll just drink beer.
I won't drink bourbon. I'm like, okay. So how would you know, if. If you were unsuccessful in that I guess if I drink bourbon, I'm like, okay, so if you drink some bourbon, let's talk about whether the beer thing is going to work or not. Now, I've aligned with them, gotten in there with them, identify that their goal is not to quit drinking.
Their goal is to give up the bourbon in this case, when they can't do that, because that's how alcoholism will work. They'll drink beer for a couple of weeks. They'll go right back to the bourbon. Then you haven't been the bad [00:06:00] guy. Okay. Your boundary is still being held, which is we're going towards sobriety.
We're just going at their pace. This is where people get, get wonky on. This is how long, what is their pace? How long do you do it? And the answer to that is never, there's never a textbook answer. I can't tell you that you have to decide. I had no idea that the day had arrived when I said to my son, you can't live here unless you're, Going to school sober or working and paying rent.
I did not wake up with that plan in mind. There just something happened. I can't remember. And I was just like, yeah, that's it. I'm done. Totally done. And so I said, this is my boundary. This is what you need to do to live here. And as most of, unfortunately he said that doesn't work for me.
And off he went to use drugs for a couple more months. So again, act as if they'll be successful. See if they can identify what plan B would be or the next. Bargaining plan would be if they're not going to be successful. See if they can identify that and align with that. We remember we are [00:07:00] slowly breadcrumbing.
We are slowly catching the big fish. All those metaphors that we use here to help our families. That's what we're doing here. You still know. What your ultimate goal is. You still know that I have this ultimate boundary, whether I need to identify firmly the date of the boundary or not really isn't the issue.
Again, you'll know when it happens and then, but if you're seeing this progress, you're going to be far more likely to assume the role we do in counseling, which is okay. So we learned that didn't work. Let's next, let's keep going and ultimately, most of them breadcrumb themselves right up to the thing, which is, yeah, if I drink anything at all, I go right back to it.
If the volume goes back to where I didn't want, I go back to the drug, the drink that I said I wasn't going to do or the drug, whatever it is, and We left that. Ultimately, we can get what we want by doing this. An ultimatum will never get you what you want or very rarely. It just, it doesn't work.
They can work with children. If you don't clean up your room, I'm not taking you to the movies, but I [00:08:00] don't find them to be a very good motivator. I don't find them to be very good for relationships. Versus saying, Hey, your room is messy. I don't really feel like taking you to a movie with this being this messy.
So I guess I'll stay home. We'll stay home and I'll clean your room. Or maybe you could help me or you could clean your room while I go clean the bathroom and we can both go to the movies this afternoon at two. Like again, you're aligning with them at that point. And I find that works better with anyone that you're trying to get to change for something you want.
So ultimatums. No bueno. I wouldn't use them. I've got a bunch of clients that are trying them. And when we have this conversation, I'm like, you're right. That makes sense. That will work a lot better. And I won't feel so threatening and finger shaking, and then probably have to leave because he's not going to do what I want him to do because of the way I'm delivering it.
I'm like, Good point. So that's the difference and that strategy of how to have a boundary and how to align with them. I hope will work for you guys. Give it a whirl, might be surprised. All right, there's a ton of questions, so I'm going to open it up for that at this point [00:09:00] okay, this is from only a set of boundary that I would leave social gatherings with my two year old. If my husband chose to drink, he is livid says I'm controlling him. Doesn't believe me that seeing him drink causes me harm advice. That's a fine boundary. And as long as you do it nicely and just say, Hey.
Steve, we're going to, we're going to roll. Like I'm going to take John and we're going to go on home. If you say it like that, he probably will moan and groan about it, but there's nothing wrong with that boundary at all. And I would just keep doing it. I wouldn't say though, because you're drinking, it's causing you harm to say, I'm not comfortable.
I don't feel very well. I don't want to stay any longer, keep it on you because it's causing you harm. And that's your focus for having the boundary. Obviously it's linked to his drinking, but don't bring that up. Okay. Cause once you bring that up, then he's going to start. You're being ridiculous. Like I just drank a couple.
You're going to have those conversations that aren't going to, aren't going to go anywhere by itself. So it's a good boundary. All right. Shannon, [00:10:00] how would you set boundaries when they are choosing to live homeless so they can use. I've now asked him to come and get the rest of his belongings so I can heal, but it's so hard to let go.
Shannon, that's a tough one, man. It's the boundary there would be my guess is you can't live here. But I think what you're really saying is that it's really horrible and very difficult to watch someone you love choose homelessness because that's just really serious addiction. It's hard to let go. I don't have anything to say other than that is very difficult.
You just have to decide, can you tolerate it? And if getting his things out of the house makes you tolerate it better, then do but he may not come get them because he's homeless and he doesn't have anywhere to put them. So you can box them up. You can put them in the storage shed. You can do whatever you need to do on that end.
But I think it's a fine boundary to have as you can't live here. It's just a tough one. And it's one that I've had to have myself. And they either choose homelessness or dealing or staying in shoddy hotels or with dealer friends, [00:11:00] it's difficult. But unfortunately, if we have that boundary that I can't live with this anymore, we just have to tolerate it.
All right, Christina, I am currently having a hard time with my alcoholic boyfriend. I told him we cannot be together due to his drinking. We have tried for three years and I can't take it anymore. Now, when I receive sad texts saying that he misses me, do I ignore them?
Block them? Do I tell him that I will block him? I feel terrible just ignoring, but the truth is I would rather That I would work on it if he works on it, but I'm a broken record at this point. You could either not respond to them. I wouldn't block him because maybe one day he'll say, Hey, I'm ready to be sober.
And you'll want to have that communication open. I think when he says you, he misses you, it's fair and square say I miss you too. Unfortunately, the situation doesn't allow us to be together. I think you should empathize and validate that his feelings are. Are valid and then empower him to he's got the control to fix this.
He knows what he needs to do. And so you can gently just use that [00:12:00] triangle of just saying, yeah, I miss you too. I wish the situation were different. I, I. I know how you feel, because I miss you too. And then don't engage further if he's tries to bring you into the sad text. That's where you can just say, I have nothing more to say on this.
I'm, I've agreed that we're both sad. And then that point, I wouldn't answer. I wouldn't block him. I'm not a big believer in blocking. The opposite of addiction is connection. Then blocking is unconnection. Or I guess the word would be disconnection. And who knows, he might reach out to you one day and say, Hey, I'm done and I need some help and I'm open to your suggestions.
I'm not going to drink anymore. All right. How do I get my daughter to realize her doing maintenance methadone that she's still not seeing that she's not taking care of her responsibilities around her home? And not there mentally for her kids. And when I try talking to her about it, she gets angry with me. I feel like she's neglecting the children. Obviously you're not going to be able to talk to her about it. Cause she gets angry and defensive and is going to shut you down on that. If you feel like she's neglecting the children. You know [00:13:00] what we say here all the time, which is safety trumps everything. If you feel the children are in danger, then you need to call Child Protective Services.
You could tell her that you are very concerned about the children and you're worried that they're being neglected. And if something doesn't change that you may do that, but I think you're going to be starting World War 98, but if that's what you need to do, that's what you need to do. The she's on that methadone maintenance.
She's not going to want to hear this because that requires them. She terminate the method of maintenance, and that's too scary. The withdrawal from that the not having my friend, my, my methadone is going to be a frightening concept for her, and so she's going to lash out and do anything to protect that.
So again you have two, two things here. One is you're trying to convince her, which isn't going to work. Two is you're trying to protect the children, which you absolutely can do, but you have to, you'll have to get other people involved. It's a tough one. All right. This is from Bailey. My loved one has been on disulfafram for , two months, planning on when she has to [00:14:00] stop the meds in order to drink on her birthday, wanting to go to therapy.
What can I do to encourage her? This is a good example of if feasible, if possible, as you can say, I have really enjoyed the last several months with you not drinking and I am a big fan of praising them, not for not drinking, but for the connection you feel like I really, But it was so much fun to watch that TV show.
And we, I love that we picked it out together and we laughed and we enjoyed that, that hour a week or whatever it was super fun to make Thai food with you last night, praise the activity, the behavior that you're seeing and how you feel about that more than it was nice to be with you when you weren't drinking.
So that they can actually connect those two. So you could say, gosh, that makes me sad to hear because I really loved the last couple of months with you. And I'm worried that when you go back to drinking for your birthday, things will fall apart a little bit again. And that makes me really sad. I hope you'll reconsider.
I would do it in that, that [00:15:00] aligning, connecting and empowering way. But she's made up her mind. She's made up her mind, but I would try that, see if that works.
All right. Do I have an opinion on, do I have an opinion on Ataluska as a preventive tool in recovery? My husband is tapering down drinking in order to participate. He is more motivated than ever. I'm just probably the wrong person for these questions. I just don't buy any of these things.
I haven't personally done them, so I can't really speak from experience. I just haven't seen them work. And many clients who've tried them over and over and over. I just don't think they're great for addiction. I think that they can work. For some transcending thing that someone wants to achieve maybe, but I haven't seen him work for addiction.
However, that being said, he's tapering down. He's getting prepared for it. I'd let him do it. And if he's excited and maybe God willing and the creek don't rise, maybe he'll taper down or stop to the point where he realizes, maybe I don't even want to do that. I feel so much better like this. [00:16:00] Or maybe he'll taper down.
He'll go do it. It won't have a lasting effect on his drinking and he'll realize that he really just needs to stop drinking either way. You could have a good outcome. I just, I don't have any personal positive experience with it from clients. It's so important to know. What we actually do want, I think that comes from some self work when you've been at a codependent type pattern. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that takes a lot of, you're right. We have to analyze what is it that I do want out of this thing. And often people clients tend to focus on.
The wrong thing or something really small and what you want to think about is what do I want big time? What is the overarching problem? What is the overarching need that I have for system change? And then that's what you focus on. Instead of the little details. So I think you made a really good point. I think that's good to notice.
All right, Eric, how do you align with them as far as their behavior when they drink too much? Sometimes my wife drinks so much and [00:17:00] becomes hunched drunk and that leads her to looking like a fool to everyone around her.
You have to wait to see if they hint around it, bring that up. Like how bad was it last night? Or I can't believe I said that some of the maybe breadcrumb they throw out there to see if you'll say, Oh, it was fine. I, it was not that bad. You could try that. Or, depending on how bad it is, you could say, hey, honey, I don't know if you remember last night very well, but several of our friends have called or texted and they were concerned about you.
I'm concerned about you. Do you want to talk about maybe making some changes in the alcohol department and just see if you can align like that? But you can't align as far as. Yeah, you look like a fool last night and I'm with you. I thought, I think it was funny. You can't align like that. You can just try to align in a way that she might be able to recognize that other people besides you have commented on it.
Often though, what I find is it's better. Those people comment directly to [00:18:00] her rather than through you because that just puts you right smack on that drama triangle. I remember no matter who tells the story and a drama triangle story, they're going to tell it from the victim side. Yeah. So if you say, Hey, Steve texted and he said, Oh wow is your wife?
All right, you're going to, she's going to be the victim when she tells the story to herself. So I would wait and see if those people can go straight to her to say, yeah, I'm, sorry, you had to witness that, but that's something you'll have to talk to her directly about and see if they'll do it.
Most people won't, but it's worth a shot.
Sarah question. My husband drinks stopped porn for a year, but now it started again. He doesn't know. I know. He has done this before quit without any counseling or accountability. Is it okay to say we have tried it his way now that he wants to try something different like counseling? Yeah, I think it's the way you say it.
Sarah is instead of saying, I found it again, and this has got to stop. You just say, hey, honey. I know the point has come back into the picture and I know that you don't like that and I [00:19:00] don't so I know you try to give it up. It seems like it's come back. So what do you say? We look at getting a different level of help on that.
What if you, instead of doing it, you're by yourself, we add something in, we can add covenant eyes. We could try some counseling. You could work on that by yourself, but I think it's time for us to look at maybe adding another layer of accountability and support. And again, you're aligning, you're not accusing, you're not getting an ultimatum.
If you're trying to get on the same side of the problem with him and then ask those questions to see if he'll choose that. If he won't choose it, if he says, no, I'm not going to do any of that, then now you've got that big question that the person in front of us just asked, which is, you've got to know what you're asking for and what you want, and then if they're not going to yield to it at all, then you have to hold the boundary.
All right, Laura, my son is 23. And has all the classics. He has signs of alcohol use disorder, and has been using alcohol, cannabis for 10 years to cope with ADHD autistic masking, et cetera. [00:20:00] He's still in denial that it's a problem.
What do I do to help him decide to quit? My big question on this one is, he's an adult, what is he living like an adult? Is he financially independent? Is he paying you rent? Is he buying to have his own car? Like where is he in the adulting responsibility world? If he's paying his own rent, paying all these things and working independently, then he's not going to, he's not going to hear you on the conversation.
If he's not doing any of those things, then you can do what Kim and I talked about on the live call yesterday for the membership, which is dial up. That adulting that adulting financial responsibility to see if he will realize, oh, I can't pay my rent, my car insurance, my car payment, whatever, because of the substances I'm using, the amount that I'm using, if he will recognize that and he can dial that down to meet the dial up on the financial, then you get a win, if he can't, then we look at the conversation that would be for you to decide whether or not.
Does he need a higher level of [00:21:00] care? What's my engagement in that going to be? Can I afford that? If he can't, if he can't meet what you dial up, then we have to prepare for treatment or some level of care to see if we can get him sober so that he can meet it. Okay. So he, she's saying he does live with her and he pays toward rent.
So again, my question would be specifically, what is that rent? Can you dial that up? Lots of people like say, Oh, yeah, my child pays rent. It's 200. I'm like, good Lord. We can find that in the sofa cushions. You got to make real life real rent, real life. And there's nowhere in the world. You can live for 200 a month.
So you have to look at what are those levels? What are those numbers? And then dial that up. Would be my best advice, right? I don't know. Is it my job or my husband who's in recovery's job to set boundaries around social gatherings and interactions with friends and family? We're in the early thirties.
So many events include alcohol, birthdays, weddings, baby showers, et cetera. I find myself being the one thinking ahead and worrying about the potential of [00:22:00] alcohol and event and. Have been the vocal one checking in prior to an event. I think you should have a conversation with more many friends know and try to accommodate, but I believe it's unreasonable for everybody to change around him.
Do we not go to anything or do I go alone or just let him decide? It's a good question. I think I would have the conversation with them and say, what do you want to do about this? Like, how do you feel? What do you want to go to this? Is that something you're interested in going to? How are you going to feel about that?
I don't think it is fair to obviously ask everybody to not serve alcohol at all. These events, if that's their norm, and that's what everybody else wants to do. But I do think he needs to. He needs to own what, where he's going and when. I don't think it's up to you to be snow plowing that at all. That's very codependent and he's not going to respond well to that.
But I do think it's an important conversation. The two of you can have. And how do you want to handle this? This is something we want to go to, but if he doesn't go because there's alcohol, I think it would be good if you also didn't go and you say, okay let's go to the mountains that day.
Or let's grill [00:23:00] burgers that day. And, or if he says, I really can't handle that. That's going to be a boatload of alcohol, but it's your niece's wedding. And I absolutely want you to go. That's a different thing. So I think you're going to have to be super gray on this and have it be a moving target, but something that you guys discuss so that there's an aligned together decision about this, instead of you trying to smooth it all out for him.
He's he needs to own that. That's you can't manage his recovery. He has to manage that.
All right, Leah, I have already set so many boundaries with my husband about not drinking and say that I cannot stand to be near him when he smells like alcohol because it triggers me and makes me feel so sad. How do I go back then on what I've said to join him in his bargaining phase like you suggested, since I've been already, I've already said all the other things to him.
It's the easiest question in the world, because I think. He'll be onto me that it's just a trick to keep proving he will make mistakes. I think you can say, I've been thrown out a bunch of boundaries and I haven't held [00:24:00] them. And I have decided that's not a very smart tact. I really want to see if we can tackle this problem together.
What do you think? And see if you'll have that conversation. Remember, it's not a boundary if you don't hold it. So I think you've put down a lot of pseudo boundaries. But you, but they haven't put a real boundary down. A boundary is I will absolutely hold this. If Bree kicked me every single day at lunch, three or four times, and I thought to myself, if she kicks me again tomorrow, I'm not sitting at this table again.
I'm going to miss staff meetings, I'm going to miss treatment team, but I'm not going to be kicked by Bree anymore. She's not a kicker. But, and then I keep sitting there when she kicks me, or I say, if you kick me anymore, I'm not sitting here. And I do, my words are nothing. If she kicks me again tomorrow, I just say, Hey guys, I'm not sitting here anymore.
I'm sorry. Or I just quietly don't sit there anymore. But a boundary is something you are absolutely going to hold. Otherwise, it is just a thought. So you have to decide, is this a boundary that I'm going to hold, or is it a thought? Is it a wish? Is it a [00:25:00] desire? If that's the case, then it's not a boundary.
And then you have to be honest with yourself and we have to know what it is we really want and what we really will stick to. But I think you can change your mind and go back to them. I don't think it's a game. I think you're Choosing a more aligning tactic.
And I think you can be fairly overt about that and just tell them that I really want you to lick this. And I think I've been going about it the wrong way. This is my new tactic. It's not to catch them. It's just to, to align with them.
All right, guys, I hope that this was a helpful topic. It is a really confusing topic. We could talk about this every day. I think it's people get very conflicted about what is a boundary and they always want to start with an ultimatum, but recognize what is your goal and what is your approach that will be the most productive and the most positive.
And I think it's going to be aligning and working with boundaries. See you soon. All right. Bye guys.
